It's like TWF, but with one weapon, feinting, and DEX to damage...


Advice


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Hello all,

I've been fiddling around on a new build and I thought I'd check what you guys thought.

It's a bit complicated and has a lot of moving pieces. I'll show the build and then explain strategy.

Half Orc Unchained Rogue (Sanctified Rogue) (Swashbuckler- archetype not class) 9/Brawler (Snakebite Striker) 2/Fighter 1

Level Progression:

Starting Stats:

Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14

Traits: Indomitable Faith, Unpredictable

1 Rogue- Skill Focus (Bluff), Weapon Finesse (Bonus), Handaxe Proficiency (Bonus)

2 Rogue- Quick Draw (Bonus Combat Trick)

3 Rogue- Finesse Weapon (Handaxe), Wave Strike

4 Brawler- [Dex +1]

5 Brawler- Dirty Fighting (Bonus), Two Weapon Feint

6 Fighter- Weapon Trick (Sword and Shield) (Bonus)

7 Rogue- Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Feint (Bonus Combat Trick)

8 Rogue- Edge Acrobatics [Dex +1]

9 Rogue- Dodge, Weapon Focus (Handaxe) (Bonus Weapon Training)

10 Rogue-

11 Rogue- Improved Initiative, Bleeding Attack

12 Rogue- [Dex +1]

Okay, let's unbox that a bit. The first couple levels are the most underwhelming. It's just weapon finesse with a handaxe, and the ability to draw quickly. However then there is DEX to damage, and wave strike which allows me to feint when drawing a weapon; in other words, Sneak Attack.

Then at fifth level Brawler gives pseudo-TWF with Brawler's flurry. This allows TWF with one weapon, and with full damage. Two Weapon Feint allows me to use a single attack as a feint attempt to get Sneak Attack.

Since Brawlers are proficient with shields, I can get a darkwood heavy shield so I can attack with no penalty, and weapon trick will let me take ten on feint checks.

So the basic idea is to walk in, draw a weapon to feint and sneak attack, and then repeat with full attacks by using feint to get sneak attack multiple times. Any opponents that can't be Sneak Attacked, the build should hopefully be good as a flank mate and still having DEX to damage.

Any thoughts or opinions?


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If you start out as a Brawler at level 1, you get more hit points.

I don't think you can use Brawler's Flurry with Hand Axe.

Brawler's Flurry wrote:
unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

I didn't find Hand Axe. Actually, I didn't find "Hand Axe" anywhere. I think you meant either Boarding Axe or Throwing Axe.

In any event, Unarmed Strike is a better weapon for you. Finessable, Flurryable, you can use it with a Shield. You can use it with a Bow. You could fight with your Shield up, a throwing weapon in your other hand, and do Brawler's Flurry with Unarmed Strikes. Your Throwing weapon is a great way to cash in on Improved Initiative. A bow migt be better. Also, what penalty are you afraid of that you want a Darkwood Shield? I don't have anything against Darkwood Shields: I'm just asking.

There actually aren't too many creatures than can't take Precision Damage. But there are plenty that can't be Bluffed. You should have multiple means for locking in your Sneak Attack Damage. You could take Dirty Trick Feats and Blind and/or Deafen your opponents. You can take Shatter Defenses and Cornudgeon Smash to make your opponents Flatfooted. You can dip a level in Arcanist and take the Dimensional Slide: a 10' Teleport that you can do as part of your Move and doesn't leave you disoriented, so you can just pop up behind someone and sucker punch them. Plus, it will allow you to use Sorcerer and Wizard Wands.

Get yourself a Mask of Stony Demeanor. +5 on Bluff Checks to Feint, costs under 1000gp.

A Robe of Needles is another cheap and powewrful item for a Sneak Attacker: Ranged Touch Attack, only 1 point of Damage with a 1 point Bleed, but you'll be doing Sneak Attack Damage when you win Initiative, assuming you can hit their Flatfooted, Touch AC!

Your character is a good candidate for the Accomplished Sneak Attacker and Precise Strike feats.


I don't think you can flurry with the handaxe. The brawler's flurry says weapons from the close group, monk group, or unarmed strikes. Handaxe isn't in any of those.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5li4u?Weapon-TrainingAnd-So-Many-Weapon s

Also, it seems like you're better from 1-3 by being pure rogue, but from 4+ you'd be better if L1 was brawler (more HP, weapon profics). Whatever weapon you end up favouring has to be close/monk/unarmed for the flurry, so getting brawler before rogue 3 saves you buying it as a separate class option.


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Oh, also! Dirty Fighting doesn't meet the prerequisites for Two Weapon Feint, because Feinting isn't a combat manoeuvre. RAW, you need combat expertise.

I suppose the upside is that you could use a Madu + whatever and actually use combat exp and/or defensive fighting. Maybe chuck in a threatening defender trait instead of Unpredictable?

Grand Lodge

Handaxe is a light martial weapon and can be made a close weapon with weapon modifications.


Well, if you're relying on Versatile Design(?) to alter a weapon's weapon group, then why not pick something better than a handaxe? I mean, a rapier has a better crit range, a gladius has P or S damage types, and if you take your Brawler level before Rogue 3 you can use a Waveblade for D6, 18-20*2, and P or S damage type, without the need for weapon mods.

Grand Lodge

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Because the op chose to use a handaxe so I was helping them use it. There are two ways to help with a build help make the build people want and/or help optimize the build. There are usually lots of people that will offer advice on how to make a build better.


Thanks for all the helpful comments!

I'll take this one at a time.

Good catch on dirty fighting. I'll just switch it out for Combat Expertise. Good thing I have Brawler's cunning!

I picked the handaxe because I needed a weapon that I could use from level one (since starting with rogue- swashbuckler gives proficiency), and I thought it was flurry-able. (I figured that brawlers having proficiency meant it would be. Oh well. :p)

I will go with one level of brawler first and just use a crossbow or something, then three levels of rogue, and the rest as normal.

The armor check penalty for shields applies to attack rolls if you're using weapon finesse, which is why I wanted a darkwood one.

I think I'll drop sanctified rogue archetype for scout. It might take a while but probably worth it. I'll also rearrange the feats to better allow for dirty trick as an option.

Mask of Stony Demeanor seems perfect! I'll also take a peak at robe of needles. With high DEX it certainly seems handy.

Here's attempt two- I can't figure out what to use my fifth level brawler bonus feat for. I also decided that Improved Initiative wasn't vital, so I made 11th level urban barbarian and picked up extra rage.

Level Progression:

1 Brawler- Skill Focus (Bluff)

2 Rogue- Combat Expertise (Bonus Combat Trick), Weapon Finesse

3 Rogue- Improved Dirty Trick

4 Rogue- Finesse Weapon (Unarmed Strike)[Dex +1]

5 Brawler- ??? (Bonus), Two Weapon Feint

6 Fighter- Weapon Trick (Sword and Shield) (Bonus)

7 Rogue- Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Feint (Bonus Combat Trick)

8 Rogue- Edge Acrobatics [Dex +1]

9 Rogue- Quick Dirty Trick, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (Bonus Weapon Training)

10 Rogue-

11 Barbarian- Extra Rage

12 Rogue- Bleeding Attack[Dex +1]

Unless you guys have a better idea, that fifth level feat will probably be dodge. It gets a bit better with weapon trick (sword and shield). Quick dirty trick unfortunately requires a BAB of 6, and all the 7 level feats are already taken up.


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eh,

I think I have a Sneak Attack build that I like better than yours, but that might just be because of my personal preferences. And even if my ideas do have a cocktail of advantages and disadvantages that I like better than yours, I'm not sure how I would improve on your concept in a way that would leave it still your concept.


If you're using a throwable weapon then ranged feint might be useful sometimes. Or quick draw I suppose. Weapon versatility might be useful to change your weapons damage type.

Edit: for the 5th level feat.


avr wrote:

If you're using a throwable weapon then ranged feint might be useful sometimes. Or quick draw I suppose. Weapon versatility might be useful to change your weapons damage type.

Edit: for the 5th level feat.

He's using a Shield. If he were willing to switch from Heavy Shield to Light Shield, he could use a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield. He can Flurry with his Shield, and it would be Finessable. He'd also need to take Exotic Weapon. If he got a Blinkback Belt, he'd get his Shield back instantly every time he threw it and be able to re-draw it as a Free Action. Throwing a Throwing Shield is no longer a Free Action, so no more infinity-free-action-attack loop, but it's still be a neat trick.

It could be a platform for other Features, such as taking Snap Shot Feats and surprise Threatening opponents within 10', taking Great Cleave and Cleaving with your Throwing Shield. You could take False Opening and make your opponents Flatfooted. Throwing Shield is a Tripping Weapon, so you might Trip someone 10' from you, have the shield instantly return, re-draw it as a Free Action, then make you Greater Trip Attack of Opportunity with your Throwing Shield. And because you are using a Ranged Trip Weapon, you have no worry about being Tripped by your own Trip attempts. But all these ideas have very high Feat costs, and would completely change the emphasis of the character build.

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