Hey guys!
So I am currently writing some of the plot for a homebrew campaign I plan on running in the distant future. (If you're one of my players reading this I WILL kill your character session one, btw) However I am trying [b]very hard[b/] to do everything by the pathfinder rules (yeah it's not making it easier lol). That being said, here's the situation:
- Pack of gnolls has been terrorizing the area around a desert village for decades; killing travelers, kidnapping and enslaving townsfolk, etc.
- A sinister person/group has convoluted plans for the gnolls, and begin brewing potions of Sow Thought and pouring them into the gnoll pack's water source. The potions are imbued with suggestions like "maybe they aren't so bad" and "I bet they'd give us food every day if we stopped killin' 'em." and other suggestions that encourage the gnolls to consider peace with the village.
- Eventually, after several months, the majority of the gnolls have shifted to CG alignment (with one or two who only shifted to CN or remained CE, which is actually an important note), and the pack leader approaches the village with an offer of long-lasting peace.
Essentially, there are several key assumptions I'm making here.
1.) Through constant exposure, eventually all of the gnolls fail the Will save against Sow Thought.
2.) With the new positive-aligned thoughts circulating through the pack, the gnolls begin performing small Penances (as per alignment change rules), and over several months these penances are sufficient to permanently change the alignment of most pack members.
3.) I am also assuming that the standard non-atonement alignment change rules can apply to an everyday creature (CE alignment, but not an evil subtype).
4.) This slow change in alignment is sufficient to override the standard cruel and evil gnoll culture.
Is any of this wrong? Anyone see a verifiable breech from RAW?
Rules wise, a 'potion in the water supply' is very suspect to begin with. Generally speaking, dumping a potion into a large body of water would dilute it enough that it would be considered destroyed. Secondly, the drinker of a potion is both the caster and they target, so whoever drank it would get to choose what 'thought' they wanted to sow in themselves (generally not something very useful).
An item that when drank would Sow a specific predetermined thought would have to be an Elixer (Wonderous Item) and would of course be a custom item. More likely, you want some sort of item that when placed in a water supply causes all who drink from it to be subject to a sow thoughts effect of a specific 'thought'. This is also of course a custom item, and certainly you are perfectly free to create such a thing as a GM. The only difficulty is determining a proper price for the item (if your players want to sell it, or theoretically attempt to construct something similar in the future.)
Another possible problem with your plan is that when a creature succeeds on a saving throw, they know that were subject to a hostile effect. Since some of your gnolls will save, one would expect them to respond in some way, rather than just keep drinking more until they finally failed a save.
The last point would be a question of whether the spell is powerful enough for the effect you desire. While it implants a 'thought' it doesn't have any mechanical effect at all. It doesn't compel any behavior. Even if followed completely, the sample thoughts that you give would, in my opinion, just move the Gnolls into neutral territory (good is more than just refraining from killing and enslaving.) The main area of concern here is that you are setting a baseline for what sow thoughts can accomplish (something largely up to a GM) and if you go too far, your players may use the same technique themselves.
That said, I think you have a very interesting story idea, and I don't see any reason not to use it. I'd probably go with an active caster choosing different 'thoughts' casting the spell (targetting key member first), along with some sort of additional impetus, most likely skilled use of diplomacy by the instigator (likely accompanied with disguise) to refine and shape the Gnolls attitudes as these new ideas percolate through them. Additionally, the persons diplomatic skills could be enough to either get their victims to voluntarily lower their saves (accept this blessing type thing) or at least help explain/cover up when a save was failed, something that an item (unless it is an intelligent one, which could be interesting too) can't really do.
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Another possible problem with your plan is that when a creature succeeds on a saving throw, they know that were subject to a hostile effect. Since some of your gnolls will save, one would expect them to respond in some way, rather than just keep drinking more until they finally failed a save.
Wait where is this in the rules?
Is any of this wrong? Anyone see a verifiable breech from RAW?
Why does it matter? Pathfinder rules are attempting to balance items the players will get (and preferably want to use) with costs to associate the power of the item. Attempting to balance a plotline around a broken currancy system when your players will never investigate the cost of such an endeavor seems like a huge waste of GM time.
I have a bit of a similar situation with a cursed item in my campaign, but I have basically handwaved a good chunk of it. Will the players ever find even all the things I've put in the game and designed? Let alone figure out some technicality in how it works by the rules? In a game where rules are 100% determined by your GM?
Like.. the goal you have in mind and arguing over whether or not *a magical potion of some kind* could pollute a water supply is ridiculous. We have *real life people who believe in homeopathy.* The idea that you couldn't use Homeopathy as your argument and taint the water supply with a drop of the solution in a game ruled completely by magical forces just seems... like a huge waste of potential.
Run with your story as is, use your time designing meaningful encounters and NPCs and hooks and all that; and don't worry about if some rules writer from 7 years ago thought of a way a GM could specifically design a potion that does the exact thing you want, in a campaign you're attempting to make unique (and in doing so are probably avoiding the cliches said writer prepared for.)
The problem you're trying to solve is antithetical to the creativity you're trying to use. Don't snuff it.
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Why does it matter?
I think for many players, if 'plot' can give their enemies unlimited powers, then it breaks the verisimilitude of the game and has a risk of creating a 'railroad' feeling. Some groups will enjoy this sort of thing, but others won't.
Making sure that you can explain, within the rules (or at the very least explain why, in this case, the normal rules don't apply) is good practice whenever you can.
If, as others have noted, homeopathic potions works for sow thoughts, then what prevents a PC from pouring a potion of CLW into the ocean to get unlimited cures? For many players, just saying 'GM creativity so the bad guys can but you can't' is an unsatisfying answer.
Personally, in my games I try very hard to keep the powers of the bad guys in line with the rules of the system (sure an occasional 'ancient artifact', 'lost ritual' or 'act of god' can show up but they need to be rare, special, and generally not reproducible.
Secondly, the drinker of a potion is both the caster and they target, so whoever drank it would get to choose what 'thought' they wanted to sow in themselves (generally not something very useful).
Interestingly enough, there seems to be a small issue in the rules on this. The rules on Potions states that the imbiber is considered both the caster and the target. However, under Brew Potion, it states that when a character crafts a potion, they make all the decisions that would normally be made when casting it. This is actually a key thing because the person making the potions doesn't know what they're being used for. They just have a list of vague suggestions that they're to impart into the potions.
Rules wise, a 'potion in the water supply' is very suspect to begin with. Generally speaking, dumping a potion into a large body of water would dilute it enough that it would be considered destroyed.
That's a fair point. I'm trying to suss out the solution to this as there aren't any rules on the subject. The way I see it, time could play a large factor. If several potions of Sow Thought (all with the same suggestion) are poured into the water source every day for several months, it's not unreasonable to say that the potion's effects eventually affect the whole tribe, but drinking the water doesn't immediately subject you to the spell.
Along with this, even though the magic rules do state that a spell's subject is aware of something, it is also true that they just feel a small tingle or malign force (in this case I would argue that the former is more likely), they don't necessarily immediately identify the spell or its intent.
You raise some good points though. I could simply have the agent/villain pour a dose of potion into empty waterskins or the bucket used to gather water. This would reasonably limit the dilution. However it does lack a storytelling flair.
The whole campaign takes place in the desert, and I really liked the idea of tampering with the water supply as it is a more serious offence in a land where access to water means life or death.
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Perhaps instead of using a magic potion, perhaps some combination of plants and chemicals is creating a drug-like effect that is making the Gnolls suggestable. The sinister group are tinkering with the natural chemistry of the water source and whilst drugged whispering thoughts into their head.
As an example: The drugging compound is a combination of the decaying leaves of a very rare underwater plant found in the lake, natural mineral compounds found in the water and an alchemical catalyst/reagent compound added by the group. Initially a group member snuck into the Gnolls' camp and whispered the ideas into a drugged and drowsy Gnoll or two. Since then they have propagated the ideas amongst other Gnolls whilst they are also suggestable.
That should solve the issue with the diluting potions and overall cost.
In 3.5, there were celestial, non-evil, technically-not-poison poisons. I forget what they were called. Ravages?
Can you get the same result with holy water?
Or maybe a special custom plant or infusion or something?
Chaotic Good gnolls sound like a lot of fun, especially if some ain't so good....
Don't sweat the rules details for setting up the plot. You don't expect the PCs to poison the gnolls' water to turn them back to Chaotic Evil, do you? So even if it was a legitimate rule set, it's not one the PCs are going to use, right?
Personally, I feel like if your goal is to change their alignment, there's easier ways to do it than RP-wise through Sow Thought. Potions of Protection from Evil would have a direct magical impact on their caster (that is, their drinker), changing even the vilest of hearts to that of nobility and care for all life with as few as 5 potions. You can even make them LG by mixing in a few potions of Protection from Chaos.
Regarding the water supply, there's a simpler solution: assuming the group that's trying to... not corrupt, that's the wrong word... the gnolls has a few decent spellcasters, have one of them invisibly infiltrate the gnoll camp and pour a bunch of potions down each of the gnoll's throats while they're asleep (using the rules for giving an unconscious creature a potion). That way, you can control exactly the alignment of each gnoll, as they've been hand-picked to be good, neutral, or evil.
From Sow Thoughts, "If the idea is contrary to the target’s normal thoughts (such as making a paladin think, “I should murder my friends”) the target may suspect mind-altering magic is at play."
Can you get the same result with holy water?
I love this question because it reminds me of my very non-religious friend's question "Can the Pope bless the ocean?"
Why does it even have to come from a plant or water source?
1. Employ hags: creatures with Charm Person, a decent DC and months of time could utilize the ability to further use Diplomacy to, in turn, influence the gnolls' reactions.
2. Employ dopplegangers: creatures that could reliably replace key members of the gnoll tribe and then act CG over several months time could effect a subtle shift in the tribe's mentality.
These are also really good ideas. Whilst it is a two-way street (in that the group has the capabilities needed to fulfil the plot), a better understanding of the sinister group's composition and goals might lead to ideas about how they could achieve their goals.