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The feats have prereqs, but if you get the feats early you can still use them. An example is a witch with the cauldron hex at level 1 - they can use brew potion it's been confirmed. Since MCM lets you make magic items as if you had the relevant crafting feats you should be good to go there.
Though at level 2 you're unlikely to have the gold to craft much, you probably won't have an amazing spellcraft skill yet, and you won't have a lot of the spell or skill prereqs which could give crafting many items a risk of losing money.
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Mythic quite intentionally unbalances things. It's why it exists at all. Also your logic is simply wrong as existing examples (others include most alchemists, forgemaster clerics, fighters with the master armorer advanced armor training, salamander bloodline sorcerers, and arcane physician wizards) directly contradict you.
Though if you want to craft scrolls, potions, wands or staves remember that you can't bypass the spell prereqs on those.
If you use craft instead of spellcraft and build around it you can get some very big numbers, true. You're still not going to have the gold to make a +5 keen agile greater vampiric scimitar at 2nd level.
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"If I put every resource I have into doing a single thing well, the GM will violate the printed rules to make sure that I can't, tell me it's the printed rules, and call others childish, if they disagree."
... I see.
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Kind of a tangential question. Does Mythic Craft also cover the "Craft Construct" feat? I have a gut feeling about the answer, but I'd like to hear other voices chime in on this.
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You can take advanced armor training as a feat at 3rd level as a fighter. 2 levels early, again.
No, none of those class abilities are equal to a mythic path ability (even one without a tier requirement). I think you're undervaluing path abilities, they include things like mythic hexes, subtle magic, titan's bane, limitless range - if you can't think how to break encounters with those you aren't trying.
Also - I may be misreading you, but you're reading like you're pretty angry. If so, I suggest you walk away and come back to this later.
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Kind of a tangential question. Does Mythic Craft also cover the "Craft Construct" feat? I have a gut feeling about the answer, but I'd like to hear other voices chime in on this.
Is a construct a magic item? Probably not IMO.
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Is a construct a magic item? Probably not IMO.Kind of a tangential question. Does Mythic Craft also cover the "Craft Construct" feat? I have a gut feeling about the answer, but I'd like to hear other voices chime in on this.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but as food for thought the SRD lists Craft Construct as an Item Creation feat. Dunno if that changes the argument in any way.
I'm of two minds regarding the mythic power. On the one hand, its not a magic item in the traditional sense, but on the other hand, it's less an intelligent, freethinking being than, say, an intelligent sword.
In fact, it is an item creation feat. Hhhhhhh-huh.
I... did not think of that.
Due to that, I'd say, yes, it's included.
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Yeah, its kind of weird because Craft ooze, craft poppet and Fleshcraft are all item creation feats, as are inscribe tattoo.
But hey, it's mythic... so, supposed to break things.
(my one mythic arcanist took Mythic Crafting Mastery first chance he could and then retrained out of all of his other crafting feats. It's only in retrospect (he's retired now, and I'm using his name as my new alias) that I realized exactly how much that gave me.
Now all I need is money and time to surround myself with mindless automatons. Woo hoo! lol
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7th level is when you can get an AAT for free by trading in part of a fighter class ability. As a feat you can get AAT at 3rd level - see here. I don't see anything specific to Master Armorer increasing the level you can take it.
8 feats yes, but there's a lot of overlap there. You will seldom use brew potion when you have both scribe scroll and craft wand for example - not never, but seldom. The last time I played a character with craft wondrous item I found 101 ways to use it to substitute for other crafting feats - not literally, but with things like a scabbard of vigor, feather tokens etc.
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My personal view on the matter is that it's a GM call situation but generally it negates the requirements to take those feats but not to use them (more on that in a moment).
The reason being as per raw the way I read it is yes you can with this path ability use any craft item feat from the moment you take it. Other mythic abilities make specific mention of requiring a minimum level/mythic tier in order to get certain effects and this one doesn't. In addition other abilities offer similarly powerful abilities such as a wizard no longer needing a spellbook at all or the ability right on becoming mythic to take an ability to spend a point of mythic power and cast any arcane spell even if you've never heard of it before so long as you meet the requirements to cast the spell and another tier ability let's you ignore casting components V S M if you take it three times its effectively letting you cast stilled, silent Spells at the base level/time and ignore expensive material components.
Which brings us to the balancing point of this ability. Yes it gives you all the crafting FEATS but it doesn't negate the crafted ITEM requirements.
Let's say for the sake of argument we have two mythic characters my lvl 20 arcanist/sorcerer archmage 10 and my apprentice a lvl 1 arcanist archmage 1. We both have take the mythic crafting feat. I can make any item I like pretty much as I have the Spells, the skills the Gold, the lvl and the other requirements to make it. My apprentice on the other hand although they have the "featsis still heavily limited by a number of factors...
1) They still need the materials to make the item usually represented by a gold amount to symbolise all the steel, gems, wood or exotic materials. Given the price of most magic items especially mythic this is a lot more gold than lower level characters tend to have.
2) Most magic items have a caster level requirement e.g. CL 12 this is not negated. So they can't make those items even though they have the item crafting feat because they aren't a powerful enough caster to make that object.
3) They also need the crafting SKILLS to make the object. Sure you may have the level and the Gold to craft that magic armour but what's your craft armour skill at? Do you even have it? You need (unless I've always misread it) to make craft checks to create a magic item so that means while you could make a shiny set of celestial chainmail for the rogue if you only have one rank of craft armour then making it is going to take you a lot of downtime to put it together with probably several failures and correspondingly lost gold. Depending on the GM's attitude towards skills you could need a lot of different craft skills for different items carpentry for wood Golems and musical instruments, Gold/silversmith for wondrous items, blacksmith for horseshoes, sewing for clothing like cloaks and so on.
4) Downtime making these items even if you meet all the requirements is not a quick process. Do you have enough spare time to sit there and put together the magical item in question or do you need to go and stop that goblin raid or the bandits on your keeps lands?
So per raw I see it as yes you effectively have all the crafting feats because there's all these other checks on how many and how powerful an item you can actually make. It's a powerful ability that replaces a half dozen feats or more but to get the most out of it you need to be a fairly high level character with enough skill points and resources (gold, materials and time) to actually put those feats to use. Of course magic item crafting does have potential to upset a games balance which is why it needs to be handled carefully and a GM may impose other restrictions on it but that's more a general issue with crafting.
EDIT
To give a concrete example take a normal 1st level wizard they have the scribe scroll feat automatically. They know how to write arcane spell formula's on a scroll to be unleashed at a later date. However they are not able to scribe a scroll of fireball as they don't know the spell, and aren't 5th level. They also probably don't have the gold lying around to pay for making it either.
Its the same here taking these mythic ability teaches how to scribe scrolls (amongst other tthings) but it doesn't negate the items requirements to actually make. You know how to imbue power into a scroll for later release but that doesn't mean you can afford to make it or know how to cast a fireball spell and you are if take it early probably going to be too low level (laking raw power or knowledge hmmmm?) to make that item anyway.
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Whoops hazard of posting off memory after just having woken up. Your right I was mixing the CL in the item description up with the items that do have level requirements to craft. Still some do have that requirement while others have race or alignment restrictions and those still apply. Also that CL is normally the minimum for the spells you have to cast to make it.
Just because you can craft magic armour for instance doesn't mean you can make celestial mail if your evil or neutral unless you have other mythic abilities.
I'm not saying there aren't ways around a lot of things but they do exist and again this comes back to crafting issues and the need for a GM call in order to keep it under control even if you just have the regular feats not the mythic one.
I already said the number of skills were GM dependant me personally I only allow spellcraft for things like potions or scrolls. Anything else you have to use the other listed skills e.g. craft (jewelery) for say a ring or profession (woodcutter) for a wand. Its a house rule but it comes back to keeping crafting under control. If you want to make magic items in my game you need to be able to make the item first in order to properly weave the enchantments into it.
Other people just completely ban crafting to keep it from unbalancing their game. However all these things are seperate issues as per the raw the mythic crafting ability allows you to effectively have all crafting feats. However from there it comes into a GM call on just how they allow crafting to work in their games since it IS a very potentially unbalancing option particualrly as written in the RAW.
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Quite true just as its true mythic rules break a lot of those systems which is why its sadly not that popular. To avoid getting derailed the main point here is how the mythic crafting ability works and for that I read it as granting access to all crafting feats it may well be broken but as written that is what it does. Just like other abilities let you no longer need a spell book or memorize spells in 15 minutes.
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"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."
Scrolls are spell completion so no issue there, they can't make the item without knowing the spell.
Wands are out as well, and I believe spells are too.
One thing to remember is that a high level item is going to cost a lot, and unless the character specs for it they can't craft all that much faster than normal either.
So they are still only able to make a set number of items.
Control downtime and you can control what they can craft.
This is until they can make a timeless demiplane.
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There is an issue here.
You can ignore any prereq to craft an item by raising the DC by 5.
So you can craft celestial mail while being evil, just up the dc by 5.
The only prereqs you can't skip are the feat needed (unless you have the path ability which basically gives you the feat for free) and the ability to cast the spell for spell completion/trigger or potions.
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I am curious as to why people are saying the level you can craft something is important?
The level is never really the issue.
The issue is cost.
Wealth is tied directly to level, so you are still limmited by level on what you can craft.
Try crafting a +5 greatsword at level 2.
You can't. Simply because you can't afford it.
That is the balancing point, and the fact that spell completion/trigger items cannot be made without actually providing the spell.
There is nothing more imbalanced about this than any of the other mythic abilities really.
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timeless demiplane.
* flowing time demiplane
(It's a common mistake/parlance, but "timeless" has a technical definition I mechanics and it won't do what most people want it to, unless the GM permits use of time stop - of course, if it is allowed, that is the better one, even better than mythic time stop, which is one of the reasons it's usually considered "not a valid interpretation" even though I don't see that argument.)((Though the other option is a maximized erratic time plane; like a baws.))
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If they can do the timeless demiplane, they can do the timestop.
But yes.
I had seen it mentioned as a timeless demiplane so often that I got it wrong.
However create greater demiplane can either be double time or half time. So not nearly as abuse-able as a timeless demiplane and time stop which gives you infinite time.
Edit
Why would the gm not permit you to cast timestop once in your plane?
There is nothing I can see that would stop you from casting it.
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Giving access to all the feats is not the problem. Giving access to all the feats at once is the problem for a first tier ability. IF this were a higher tier then I would have no objection at all! Even 3rd tier is more balanced than 1st as interpreted but putting in place the level requirements to have access to the individual crafting feats just makes sense and it is insinuated in the wording but not clarified.
It is neither insinuated nor in need of clarification. You can craft stuff as if you have the feats, full stop. You wanna make a staff at level 1? Well, good luck getting the funds and meeting the DC, but otherwise knock yourself out.
It's mythic. It's supposed to be ridiculous and imbalanced. A 1st-tier archmage can already cast any spell on their spell list by spending a mythic point. A pistolero with the 1st-tier Limitless Range is doom with feet. You're upset about letting people burn a valuable path ability so they can just make stuff? Browse the forums a bit and let us show you just how broken a single mythic tier can really be.
If they can do the timeless demiplane, they can do the timestop.
But yes.
I had seen it mentioned as a timeless demiplane so often that I got it wrong.
However create greater demiplane can either be double time or half time. So not nearly as abuse-able as a timeless demiplane and time stop which gives you infinite time.Edit
Why would the gm not permit you to cast timestop once in your plane?
There is nothing I can see that would stop you from casting it.
Two things:
1) mythic timestop caps out at ~20 hours (you can, of course, boost that), but you can't gain benefit from rest; a lot of people are leery of allowing non-mythic stuff to exceed mythic stuff (even though non-mythic stuff can exceed mythic stuff all the daggum time)
- 1a) ring of continuation; when it first arrived on the scene, this permitted 24 hours per time stop, until it was FAQrrata'd to be "10 minutes per level or longer"-only - a FAQrrata that was explicitly put into place in response to the time stop issue (as the PDT apparently didn't want anyone getting "infinite time" for all sorts of reasons). Based on this ruling and FAQrrata, many GMs rule against the "timeless->time stop" effect as "abuse" and "against RAI" - which, to be fair, may well be the latter.
2) an argument I've never quite understood about, "well, it really doesn't count because <reasons>" and there are always reasons (), but I've never quite followed them (note: this may well be on me and my inability to understand simple logic)
3) "I don't like it" (so, not RAW, but just not allowed at a given GM's table); this particular argument also negates the use of a greater metamagic rod of maximize plus create greater demiplane (erratic time) * to make 1 round = 1 day, though, so... yurp
I don't actually agree that these are RAW arguments (except, maybe, the last one, due to "rule 0" - though I don't like it, either), but I don't dismiss their validity at individual tables, and I recognize their commonality (in my, however limited, experience).
To be clear, this doesn't make the "timeless plane" a mistake, but the "timeless plane <nothing else mentioned>" will not, in fact, get you "infinite time" - you've got to also come up with a time stop somehow (which could be easy, but could also push costs juuuuuuusssssst over the edge for being feasible). This does not encourage folks toward the use of the maximize'd erratic time, as the cost of a rod outstrips the cost of the extra scroll by a large margin.
That said, there are a few reasons to go with the 1-day-per-round scenario instead of the time stop, but they mostly involve conjuration for XP-and-treasure-grinding, to the best of my knowledge ("Why, yes, I'd like to go from 9th level to 23rd over the course of 2 years, at zero real risk to myself or the outside world! Thanks! Yes, I'm aware that's not really covered much, but it's part of the core rules! W00t!").
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EDIT: Okay, I've edited this so much, it's no longer clear what I have and haven't, and it won't do any good to mark any one piece as "edited" as it's all been at least slightly touched, I think. Basically, if you've read this post before the first ten minutes, ignore everything and read it again. XD
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Beorn, if the players are seriously considering literally not playing the game I can't imagine how bad the game is that that alternative is better.
Beyond just that I highly doubt whatever campaign they were involved in is just going to sit by and watch for a year as they craft
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Beorn, if the players are seriously considering literally not playing the game I can't imagine how bad the game is that that alternative is better.
Beyond just that I highly doubt whatever campaign they were involved in is just going to sit by and watch for a year as they craft
My response would be something like: sure you can do all that. Congrats. You take a year off of adventuring, the plot continues in the background uncontested, and since our valiant heroes were otherwise occupied the bad guys won and the world is now a wasteland. Kudos. In other news, Money has become worthless and everyone is scrabbling for resources of actual value, like water. Welcome to the Thunder dome.
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Two men enter. One man leaves
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Is anyone on here an Official Paizo representative?
Does anyone disagree that a GM is free to put the limitations on that I suggested before we even start playing? Just clarifying my ruling on it. Take money and time out of the equation and how broken can this be?
Say the PC's all pitch to make a magic item and there are 6 players all with 5,000 gp at 3rd level now the Crafter has 30,000 gold. He has Hedge Magician Trait and being third level he decides to take time off of adventuring and craft while his companions make profession checks.
So they sit and make money the whole time the crafter is crafting with his familiar and Mythic Crafting Mastery. He makes 2 sets of Gloves of the Commanding Conjuror for 15,000 gp cost each.
CL7 +5 + 5 for not qualifying for Control Summon Creature yet = DC 17
3rd level Crafter with 3 ranks in spell craft = 6 points +2 MW Tools +2 Familiar Assisting +1 Hedge Magician +5 Crafters Fortune = roll a 1 to fail AND get 2 rolls to make it happen not to mention 1d6 for Mythic Surge! = 16+1d6 need a 1 to make the item with NO CHANCE OF FAILURE.
Now they can only sell the item for 50% value but they have Hedge Magician that give 5% off the cost to create so they make money even if they do not attempt diplomacy to sell for greater than they crafted the items.
So 30,000 then becomes 31,500 AND the rest of the group gets to make profession rolls to make money while they are at it. This also takes 1 day per thousand to craft, unless you have a Valet Familiar and the Crafting Feat of the item you are crafting then it is either 2,000 or 4,000 gp a day. So 60,000 gp in magic items created = 20 days.
Wash, Rinse and repeat to break a game at really low levels. So 200 gp+ in profit each two weeks why not take a year off from adventuring and make 4,800 gp each? And have the crafter double the cash while they still make money on a profession?
Just saying this could happen in my player's thought patterns! They are already pissed they cannot sell items they...
A few things:
- Official Paizo representatives with rules authority are super-busy and rarely post in their own right. They might answer it in a FAQ or erratum, but it may be a while.
- Yes, Rule 0 of tabletop RPGs dictates that the GM has the ultimate authority to modify the rules as desired, and the corollary "Rule -1" is that a player has the ultimate authority to leave the table if it doesn't work for that player. These are implied with any discussion in the Rules Questions forum, but they are usually only brought up when the existing rule in question is already thoroughly covered and the thread has progressed to discussion of the ins/outs/merits of said rules. (Note that this progression is technically not within the scope of the Rules Questions forum, but since the original question has been answered, might as well chat about it while there's a good context for it.)
- Your concerns about infinite gold have nothing to do with mythic--any non-mythic caster can do this with Scribe Scroll at 1st or Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level. But we're talking about adventurers here--even if they have the inclination to do this, how do they have the time? If they wanted to craft and sell magic gloves for a living, they might as well do that and leave the thrilling heroics to someone else. (IIRC, Ultimate Campaign has more to say on the subject as well, but I have no idea how viable a solution it has to offer.)
- Don't expect item creation to have a chance of failure. You can take 10 on the Spellcraft check to craft an item provided you remain free of distracted for the duration. This is intentional. (And a bit boring, so feel free to come up with a more exciting system for your players.) Beyond that, it's pretty easy to boost a single skill (Spellcraft or a relevant Craft check) up to ridiculous levels, including--yep--crafting items to boost said skill. So work under the assumption that the only thing standing between your players and the items they crave are (1) money and (2) time.
Hopefully this was more helpful and I didn't come off as acerbic as I can sometimes seem in text. A lot of this stuff isn't obvious to folks who don't spend a ton of time crawling game forums. If I did sound cranky, well, I'm just some pig on the Internet anyway. : D
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Not really. They have to have that much money a day to spend. Stop worrying about what they can technically do and worry about what they can actually do in game.
Somewhat if they are crafting stuff fast anyway? Unless you allow all items ever to be made it won't really break the game
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Pretty much I'm personally not a min-maxer but more of a story teller a lot of the abilities I want to take I want to take for the theme rather than because they are "broken super powered". Simulcrum is an example potentially broken very easily but I'm quite likely to not even use it in a game where I take it much less abuse it. I take it because of personal taste issues to have as an option for my mage when the game campaign is over. Same with mythic crafting I'd take it so I'd have a mage who can make everything without giving up pretty much all my feats not because I'm planning to break the economy by crafting gear day in/day out.
It's the same with a nearly all my preferred mythic choices e.g. sustenance (yes there are magic items that do the same but I'm sustained by my own power), longevity (yes there are spells/items that can make you immortal but I don't need them), sleepless (I can get a lot more done even if I spend nights sitting by the fire grumbling about the jerks who keep putting me on watch with the elf), starwalker (I can travel the cosmos even if I'm unlikely to leave the planet till the campaign's over), divine source (I can grant my followers divine spells even though if I had to take all those crafting feats seperately I wouldn't have any feats free for leadership), pure body (again there are magic items/clerics for this but I can retire and still not worry about disease/poison). The end result is I wind up with an immortal mage who doesn't need to eat/drink/sleep/breathe or worry about poisons and disease and quietly explore the world/universe after stopping the vast evil threat that made them mythic in the first place. Even with my gear choices the wayfinder I like best is the one that can point you to the nearest interplanetary gateway rather than a "more powerful" choice.
EDIT
Its also why I prefer a spending system rather than a leveling one as there's less of a feel that you're giving things up. It turns buy this or miss out into you can buy this now and then that later.
Level Gained
1 Feat to purchase.
Well I really would like to get craft wondrous items but I need to purchase spell penetration.
Mythic Tier Gained
1 path ability to select.
I need to buy perfect preperation to free me from the problem of carrying all these spell books.
vs
Enemy beaten gain 10 XP, Gain 1 Mythic XP
Ok I'll purchase . . . . sanctum with the mythic xp and weapon proficiency elven sword with the normal XP. Sure I don't need them but I like the blades so my wizard is learning how to use one and now I have a home away from home.
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Don't think one exists for pathfinder or I'd be using it that was more a general example of why I'm more a fan of a system like Shadowrun where you get XP that you then use to purchase skills/abilities/qualities/etc rather than one like pathfinder where xp gets you a level and a set series of rewards. Pathfinder has other advantages which is why I also like it but for improving a character I'll always come down on the side of purchase improvements with your XP because then given time you can build your own idea of what you want a lot easier and you don't run into the issue of "I have X feats from 1st to max level . . . I really, really like this but I can't justify taking it."