My character has three scrolls of Animate Dead; two from a Cleric, so CL 5, and one from a Wizard, so CL 7. My character also has a personal CL of 1 (and a good UMD score).
As the caster level of a scroll serves as the caster level of a spell irrespective of the user's personal caster level:
1) Cleric scroll - 10HD Undead
2) Wizard scroll - 14HD Undead
3) Cleric scroll - 10HD Undead
Uh-oh, now my character has 34HD of undead, but the limit on the CL 5 scroll would be 20HD, and 28 on the CL 7. And, if it were to somehow matter in this, a personal HD limit of 4.
How does this resolve?
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Don't forget that you need to make a Caster Level check of DC 6, DC 6 and DC 8 by rolling 1d20+1 for each. Still a low chance of failure but possible.
I think the answer you're seeking is within the spell itself:
No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released.
The highest Caster Level you used for those castings was 7, so the most Undead you could control would be 28.
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Since the spell is duration: Instantaneous, the scroll’s artificial “caster level” is also used up instantaneously. It doesn’t persist permanently. So after using the scroll’s caster level to determine how many hit dice are created, you are left with your own caster level to determine control.
Invest in some scrolls of Command Undead.
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I don't see any support for that interpretation.
If that were the case, a Rogue using UMD to activate a scroll of Animate Dead couldn't control any of them.
The section I quoted about control is contained within the text of the spell. It is not some general rule about controlling undead.
When the spell’s effect ends instantaneously, what is letting you keep the caster level of the spell? Nothing. So you must use your own caster level.
Otherwise, we open a GIANT can of worms when we start allowing characters to use a scroll of Animate Dead from each of the classes for a bunch separate CL pools.
4 Wizard scrolls (28HD)
4 Sorcerer scrolls (32HD)
4 Cleric scrolls (20HD)
4 Oracle scrolls (24 HD)
4 Warpriest scrolls (28HD)
4 Occultist scrolls (28HD)
Using all of these scrolls for a bunch of separate CL pools would net you a max of 160HD of undead with no real CL required. This costs money, but breaks the system.
Since Animate Dead doesn’t instantaneously bestow a permanent caster level when you use it, you must use your real caster level to determine control (since that happens after the spell effect). If you are a Rogue with a CL of 0, it would appear you can control 0HD of undead but using the Command Undead scrolls you picked up you can continue to fake it as a Necromancer.
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Using all of these scrolls for a bunch of separate CL pools would net you a max of 160HD of undead with no real CL required
No, it doesn't, because of the first sentence of my earlier quote:
"No matter how many times you use this spell, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level."
That Caster Level was set when the spell was cast.
There is no such thing as an "artificial caster level” (your words).
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Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
So the spell has a caster level...
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.
And the spell energy leaves the instant the spell is cast...
How are you keeping the scroll spell’s caster level? That magic is gone. I don’t see anything in the rules stating the CL is now “set” for the rest of time. After casting Animate Dead, if you don’t have the actual CL to back it up, you don’t have the ability to control the undead you created.
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This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.
The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.
(bolded sections for emphasis)
The highest Caster Level you used for those castings was 7, so the most Undead you could control would be 28.
Does the order of use matter? If I go Clr-Wiz-Clr, would the CL5 cap, being the most recent casting, supercede the CL7's higher cap?
That's how I was viewing it; if I save the Wiz for last, I can squeeze on those last 8HD for the cap while holding the 20 from the other scrolls, but if I use a Clr last, I'd be limited to 20.
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The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.
And since your own caster level is 1, there's an argument to be made that the total HD you can control is based on that and not the instantaneous effect of the scroll. There's no official answer to the Animate Dead caster level problem, and multiple competing interpretations that are all valid, at least unless we get a FAQ on the matter.
There are four competing answers for the number of HD the character described by Old Grognard would be able to command:
4 HD - on the basis that the character has caster level 1, and the scroll's caster level is irrelevant.
20 HD - on the basis that the last scroll cast takes precedence.
28 HD - on the basis that the highest caster level scroll takes precednece.
48 HD - on the basis that Wizard caster level and Cleric caster level are two separate things, and thus each is capped separately in terms of how many they can control.
I'm pretty confident you'll find all four of these variations (and probably even more) in use at real tables. There really is no generally-accepted answer to this problem, and I'd consider all of them valid interpretations given the current vagueness of the RAW.
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The highest Caster Level you used for those castings was 7, so the most Undead you could control would be 28.Does the order of use matter? If I go Clr-Wiz-Clr, would the CL5 cap, being the most recent casting, supercede the CL7's higher cap?
That's how I was viewing it; if I save the Wiz for last, I can squeeze on those last 8HD for the cap while holding the 20 from the other scrolls, but if I use a Clr last, I'd be limited to 20.
Why would you do that?
If you have 28 HD of Undead, use the CL 7th scroll.
If you have 20 HD instead, use the CL 5th scroll.
You don't get 20+20+28=68, because Animate Dead has a built in restriction to prevent that.
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since your own caster level is 1, there's an argument to be made that the total HD you can control is based on that and not the instantaneous effect of the scroll.
I have yet to see any support for the Caster Level 1 interpretation, other than posters saying "that's what I'd do!".
When such evidence can be presented, an argument can be made.
Until that time, you handle scrolls of Animate Dead in the same manner that all other scrolls are handled: by using the Caster Level of the scroll.
That's how I was viewing it; if I save the Wiz for last, I can squeeze on those last 8HD for the cap while holding the 20 from the other scrolls, but if I use a Clr last, I'd be limited to 20.Why would you do that?
In theory, you wouldn't. In practice, it actually comes up fairly often:
1) Use a Cleric scroll to create minions
2) Use a Wizarc scroll to create more minions
3) Get into battle, some minions die
4) Use another Cleric scroll to create more minions
Thus this sequence can most certainly come up in a real game, and the question of how it works isn't just an academic one.
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1) Use a Cleric scroll to create minions
2) Use a Wizarc scroll to create more minions
3) Get into battle, some minions die
4) Use another Cleric scroll to create more minions
This sequence does not make sense to me.
Why would you not just use the CL 7th scroll first?
You're wasting the CL 5th scroll if you use it first.
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To point out the absurdity of only using the scroll's Caster Level "some of the time", with no indication of which effects should be Scroll-dependent or User-dependent, let's look at another instantaneous spell with a CL-dependent effect:
Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of becoming permanent, but the negative levels from enervation don't last long enough to do so.
Assuming this time duration was User-dependent, and their Caster Level was zero, a scroll of Enervation would be totally useless, because all negative levels would be cured after zero hours.
It makes much more sense that the scroll's Caster Level is used for all CL-dependent variables of the spell being cast.
To claim otherwise would need some significant evidence as support.
This sequence does not make sense to me.
Why would you not just use the CL 7th scroll first?
You're wasting the CL 5th scroll if you use it first.
The maximum you can create in a single casting is half of the maximum that can be controlled. You create 10 HD of undead with the Cleric scroll, then 14 HD of undead with the Wizard scroll. Total undead controlled: 24 HD. No waste.
The Desecrate spell doubles the number of HD you can create with one casting, but applying the Bloody skeleton variant option halves the number of HD you can create with a single casting. These two modifiers are usually used to wash each other out, so you can usually ignore them.
Until that time, you handle scrolls of Animate Dead in the same manner that all other scrolls are handled: by using the Caster Level of the scroll.
The counter-argument is that the spell's duration is instantaneous, and the caster level limitation does not apply to any single casting of the spell but rather collectively casting the spell many times. If the spell was cast at different caster levels each time, it is ambiguous as to which caster level is meant. This ruling holds that since the limitation doesn't apply to any specific casting, it must be your own caster level that is being referred to.
Bottom line, the way it's written animate dead is ambiguous as to which caster level it means. It's a weird edge case, being an instantaneous effect with a limitation across multiple castings. Until we get a FAQ, it's just not clear what exactly it means.
Reading through the text I'm surprised there seems to be so much confusion given this line right here.
No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.
Now, have the following scrolls
1) Cleric scroll - 10HD Undead
2) Wizard scroll - 14HD Undead
3) Cleric scroll - 10HD Undead
We cast scroll #1 and instantly create 10HD worth of undead. After those undead are created we are able to hang on to 4 HD worth of undead and the remaining undead become uncontrolled.
We cast scroll #2 and create 14HD worth of undead. We lose control of the 4HD we had before and may hang on to 4 HD worth of newly created undead and the rest become uncontrolled.
finally we cast scroll #3 and create 10 more HD worth of undead. We lose control of the 4HD we got from casting 2 and may hang on to 4 HD worth of undead from this most recent casting.
In the end we have created 34HD worth of undead but only control 4HD of undead coming from the last casting.
Conversely, a pure rogue using one of those scrolls (CL 0) can still cast it and still create the undead they just won't be able to control them by virtue of the spell.
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Why would a scroll of Animate Dead create any Undead at all, if the scroll's user has a Caster Level of zero?
Because you don't use the scroll user's Caster Level. You use the scroll's. For all variables.
I recognize after this dialogue that this may become an issue of "agree to disagree", but I usually at least like to understand where the other side is coming from.
I am utterly flabbergasted where this logic is coming from.
That's how I was viewing it; if I save the Wiz for last, I can squeeze on those last 8HD for the cap while holding the 20 from the other scrolls, but if I use a Clr last, I'd be limited to 20.Why would you do that?In theory, you wouldn't. In practice, it actually comes up fairly often:
1) Use a Cleric scroll to create minions
2) Use a Wizarc scroll to create more minions
3) Get into battle, some minions die
4) Use another Cleric scroll to create more minionsThus this sequence can most certainly come up in a real game, and the question of how it works isn't just an academic one.
Basically this, but I was also considering larger minions. I could have 10HD of squirrels, or something equally small, and not matter if I lose one or two. Let's say I have two 5HD zombies instead.
I then kill an 11HD Huge creature I want to grab, 14HD worth of zombie; I have to use the wizard scroll.
But if my first one is limited to 20 HD, then the resolution is mucked again, because I can't lose any whole zombie. Would one 5HD creature fall away and I'd "lose" a HD, or would the spell fail, because I can neither gain a 14 nor lose a 4?
I can't side with the 0/4HD argument; it says pretty clearly that scrolls use the Caster Level of the scroll for all bits of the spell. None of this would matter, either, if the scrolls all held the same CL.
But the same problem could be true of a caster scribing her own scrolls, if she uses Animate Dead from a scroll scribed at a previous level. Necromancers always seemed like a common theme, and this was my first odd attempt at it; I didn't realize it was as ambiguous as it seemed.
I'm always cool with asking GMs for their verdict anyway, but sometimes they don't think of a situation before it happens, either.
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Why would a scroll of Animate Dead create any Undead at all, if the scroll's user has a Caster Level of zero?
Because you don't use the scroll user's Caster Level. You use the scroll's. For all variables.
I recognize after this dialogue that this may become an issue of "agree to disagree", but I usually at least like to understand where the other side is coming from.
I am utterly flabbergasted where this logic is coming from.
A scroll of Animate Dead does indeed become somewhat of a trap option for non Casters unless they use scrolls of Command Undead to keep minions.
You absolutely use the scroll’s CL to determine the effects of the spell, no exceptions.
How many undead you control, although a stipulation written in the spell text, is not itself an effect of the spell. It’s a limitation of the spell, limiting you to controlling 4xCL.
The spell, being an Instantaenous one, does not persist past the casting. The effect of the spell remains (undead guy) but caster level doesn’t. Nothing in the rules say the caster level persists, only the effects (undead guy).
To rule that you get to keep having a caster level past the duration of a spell is bonkers. This interpretation absolutely allows for abuse and insane amounts of minions. Just a a Warpriest 2 Cleric 3 has two caster levels (2 and 3) rather than a total caster level of 5, a character using multiple scrolls created by multiple classes would have separate CL pools of undead. Breaks the game.
If we open that up, every single dedicated Necromancer would use scrolls of other classes to boost their control pools.
@Viliym you need to prove how the Caster Level is an “effect” of the spell of you want it to hang around after your Instantaneous spell is cast.
Why would a scroll of Animate Dead create any Undead at all, if the scroll's user has a Caster Level of zero?
Because you don't use the scroll user's Caster Level. You use the scroll's. For all variables.
I recognize after this dialogue that this may become an issue of "agree to disagree", but I usually at least like to understand where the other side is coming from.
I am utterly flabbergasted where this logic is coming from.
That's fair, so I will explain.
The scroll has a caster level and so all variables of the spell at the time of casting are based on the scroll's caster level. So, if I use the 5th level scroll I create 10HD worth of undead or 20HD if I am within a zone of desecration at the time of use.
Now, there is additional effect which is independent of any one casting of the spell. The text even says that it doesn't matter how often the spell is cast.
No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.
The caster level referred to in this text must be the caster level that the character possesses independent of casting the spell.
Treating it as the scroll's caster level introduces a lot of abuse and/or weirdness that doesn't make sense.
If the scroll's caster level is all that matters for control and it is set at the time of the casting and never changes, then a wizard could create and control an infinite number of undead just by always casting the spell from a scroll that they themselves created. This is in clear violation of the half of the spell's description.
If the spell's caster level is set until the spell is cast again then a 20th level wizard would suddenly lose control of their entire army just because they picked up a 3rd level scroll of animate lesser undead and cast it.
of course, if I assume that once the spell is cast control is based on the character's caster level this also has ramifications. If a wizard suddenly loses caster level due to a debuff they will lose control of some of their undead since their control limit will also drop.
of those 3 scenarios the last one is the one that seems reasonable. Under the first 2 a necromancer would either never cast the spell without casting it via a scroll (since unlimited undead). Or a necromancer would never cast the spell via a scroll since the scroll's caster level will invariably be lower than their own caster level and it would result in losing control of undead.