Mirror image and grappling


Rules Questions


What happens when your mirror imaged and you have your opponent grappled? Let's say he the enemy wants to do a full attack on me, than would mirror image apply? Rules as written state CMB checks are attack rolls, thus mirror image would function normally?


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RAW, mirror image affects your grapple target if they try to attack you while you have them grappled, silly as it sounds. Technically reversing the grapple may be considered to also have to go against the mirror image, but it's specifically a CMB roll but not specially called a maneuver. Since it's not a maneuver, it might not be considered an attack roll as part of the break out.

Personally, I'm fine with grappled targets having the mirror miss chance when attacking but not when trying to reverse the grapple.

The Concordance

RAW mirror images function normally. Only invisibility is called out as having a lesser effect. So as they try to bite or claw or stab your face and chest, sometimes they would indeed hit the illusory faces and chests.


hmm, i think maybe not.

mirror image is an illusion (figment) spell.
under magic (spell description, illusion school, Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)) in the core book it say :

"Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline."

so lets break this down. grappler vs caster with 3 mirror images (so 25% to hit right one)
assuming the grappler can make 2 grapple checks in one round via greater grapple. no constrict or other auto damage when grapple added.

step one he try and graple the caster. since this does not deal damage even if he grab a mirror it shouldn't pop. in this case i would , as a gm (to not tip the player) require him - if his grapple check is enough to grapple the caster, before looking to see if it is a mirror to make his save (so if it is the real caster or a miror but he fail he get the same answer, 'u grapple him').
-if he save and the roll say its a mirror then he see it as tranparent and can let go as free action.
-if he failed and got a mirror or got the caster(and so didnt need to save at all). then he belive he has the real caster and next grapple would ether effect the caster or mirror depand what he try to do (as he has hold of his target for contuniung a grapple i would not ask him to reroll his chance even if he got the real caster. as he keep the same target grappled he is effecting only it, mirror or real). then if he decide to damage the target with the 2nd roll .if caster he would damage and know for real. if mirror it would pop (again only if he made the grapple check).

in any case that he grab a mirror and doesn't damage it but make his save .from now on he would know it for a mirror and can disragard attacking it as per the figment rules since he would see it as transparent.

this DOES mean that a grappler who only try to not harm the target (not deal damage. only pin or move etc) AND keep failing his saves would actuly be grappling the air convincing himslef he has some1 grappled. (and would look real funny to anyone with true sight watching him)


Close eyes, now the target is effectively invisible (and thus has no benefit other than +2 CMD).

Next, since you are no longer using sight, you ignore the mirror images.

Wayfinders

Close eyes to attack against mirror images. It is not illegal by RAW or RAI, but can really spoil the fun for players relying on mirror images. As the saying goes, what a player can do, the GM can do too.

In any case, close yes, aka by RAW, Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent. You still need to make a 50% miss chance

Other than that, GM might declare you must do so at the start of the round, so you need acrobatics to walk normally, and is flat-footed for the rest of the round. I have such GMs before.


Le Enigmax wrote:

Close eyes to attack against mirror images. It is not illegal by RAW or RAI, but can really spoil the fun for players relying on mirror images. As the saying goes, what a player can do, the GM can do too.

In any case, close yes, aka by RAW, Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent. You still need to make a 50% miss chance

Other than that, GM might declare you must do so at the start of the round, so you need acrobatics to walk normally, and is flat-footed for the rest of the round. I have such GMs before.

Closing your eyes has been a known solution to Mirror Image for a long time now.

And btw, you are not flat-footed if you are blind, you lose your dexterity bonus, but that does not make you flat-footed (CRB p565). People often conflate the two.

Finally, as indicated in the rules for invisibility, if you are grappling a target you cannot see they do not benefit from concealment.

The Concordance

A lot of people conflate the rules for blindness and the rules for invisibility. “Effectively invisible” isn’t a thing. Either you are or you aren’t.

Glossary wrote:
If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.

Grappling only gets past the miss chance for Invisibility... not blur, blinded, seeing conditions, displacement, or any other miss chance effect.


The images wont help you. Someone that has you in a headlock can't accidentally squeeze the wrong neck.

Trying to establish the grapple is a different story

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