Question about diversity in Curse of the Crimson Throne

[Jay]

Hi,

So I have mostly GMed more recent campaigns like Ironfang Invasion but I got the CotCT Hardcover for my birthday and am running it now. One of my players, who is mixed race and really felt a kinship for Aubrin in Ironfang Invasion pointed out that every NPC they've met in Crimson Throne so far is white. Looking through the book, the major npcs and villains seem to be exclusively white except for Thousand Bones.

I was wondering if this is done on purpose, is Korvosa just not very racially diverse, is it exclusionary to other races? I noticed it is mostly human but didn't realize those humans were also not very diverse.

I am thinking of recasting some of the major players with new art. Does anyone foresee that being a problem story wise? Also does anyone have links to resources of character portrait art to help me out?

Thanks,
Jason

[James Jacobs]

Curse of the Crimson Throne was one of our earliest products, and in the decade or so since its original publication, I like to think and hope that we've learned to be more diverse in our portrayal of ethnicities and the rest.

That said, Korvosa is probably the LEAST diverse city in Varisia; it's still got a pretty strong Chelaxian tradition/history in it. In time, I'd like to think and hope that Korvosa would grow much more diverse (more like Kaer Maga or Magnimar or Riddleport).

Certainly today, in the real world, we're doing a lot more to try to keep NPCs diverse as they appear in adventures.

If I were starting from scratch with Crimson Throne today, I would ABSOLUTELY make things more diverse. And recasting the major players with new art is a great way for a GM to fix this problem and vastly improve the Adventure Path as a result.

[Jay]

Wow thank you so much for replying James. I have noticed that more recent APs are very diverse. Thank you for that. I'm currently trying to recast some major players like the Soldado family and maybe Trinia Sabor.

[Olmac]

I can see Korvosa becoming more diverse after the queen is defeated. But at the beginning of Crimson Throne, the city is primarily Chelish/Varisain when it comes to the human population. Until then you can expect that the majority of who you will see and interact with will be pasty and olive complexioned people.

Now, I have never been one to worry about such things in this game. Pathfinder, and it's predecessor, where designed with the goal of escapism in my opinion. It seems that to bringing in real life issues (such as diversity) into a game developed for escapism is counter productive to the very idea of escapism. I hope it never comes to it, but it will a very sad day when the SJWs of the world come to invade upon mine and other people's means of escape.

Do not get me wrong, I live in one of the most diverse and accepting countries in the world and I welcome it. I just don't want to see it become an issue in Pathfinder. It will taint the game for me.

[James Jacobs]

Bringing real life issues (PARTICULARLY diversity) into Pathfinder and Golarion is one of the most important things to me about my job at Paizo and my responsibility as the company's Creative Director and my personal goals to make the game appealing to as many people as possible.

If Pathfinder is indeed a game for lots to enjoy (and that's the whole point), then it needs to have lots of folks represented. Full stop. I don't see this as an issue that's up for debate.

For me, "escaping" to a setting like Pathfinder REQUIRES diversity, since one of the things I'd like to escape about the real world is homophobia, racism, misogyny, and the like.

If diversity "taints" a game for someone, then perhaps Pathfinder isn't the game for you.

[Caleb The Cold]

James Jacobs wrote:

If diversity "taints" a game for someone, then perhaps Pathfinder isn't the game for you.

Two things:

firstly- I don't believe anyone said that diversity taints the game, diversity becoming an issue taints the game. If you want a good example of this take a look at what's happening with the warhammer community right now. Lorewise If Korvosa is an area with little outside influence (I can't honestly remember) then little diversity would make sense within the area as the people living there have lived there for a long period of time.
secondly- so long as the character's race doesn't have any major impact on their personality, there should be no issues for a GM looking to recast some people without rewriting the adventure. Just try to avoid swapping a human with a bugbear and it'll be fine.

[Olmac]

James Jacobs wrote:

Bringing real life issues (PARTICULARLY diversity) into Pathfinder and Golarion is one of the most important things to me about my job at Paizo and my responsibility as the company's Creative Director and my personal goals to make the game appealing to as many people as possible.

If Pathfinder is indeed a game for lots to enjoy (and that's the whole point), then it needs to have lots of folks represented. Full stop. I don't see this as an issue that's up for debate.

For me, "escaping" to a setting like Pathfinder REQUIRES diversity, since one of the things I'd like to escape about the real world is homophobia, racism, misogyny, and the like.

If diversity "taints" a game for someone, then perhaps Pathfinder isn't the game for you.

I get that, and honestly I agree with you about making the game more diverse so it will appeal to more people. The more people that play the game, the better it makes the game.

No where did I say that the game should not be diverse. No where did I say that the game is tainted for me because of diversity.

What I did say was if diversity becomes an issue it would be tainted for me.

So maybe I need to clarify what I meant by that. If people start coming on these boards complaining about a lack of diversity (or any other social issues from the real world for that matter), that is what will taint it.

Bringing in homophobia, racism, misogyny, and the like, will also taint the game. They have no place in a game enjoyed by people from all over the world, from all walks of life, from all ethnic backgrounds, or from all religions.

I thought that Crimson Throne was bold and daring for creating the relationship between Ileosa and Sabina. I also thought it was awesome. Then when the relationship between Kyra and Merisiel came up in the Pathfinder Legends series I thought it was very cool (not sure what the comics did). Even being able to throw a little humor in there about Valeros and Harsk was great. I look forward to more of that.

Bring on the diversity, just don't complain if there is not enough of it to make you happy. It is there, and it is to be enjoyed.

Also, the best part is that if you don't think there is enough in the published works, the rules and guide books allow you to create your own world and make it as diverse as you like. The power is in your hands. Also remember, that just because it is a published work does not mean you cannot not alter it to suit your needs. You have the power.

Now I am off to play my hedonistic bisexual female fetchling Oracle in Hell's Vengeance. Calistria's kindness be praised...

[Ashkar]

Jay wrote:

I was wondering if this is done on purpose, is Korvosa just not very racially diverse, is it exclusionary to other races? I noticed it is mostly human but didn't realize those humans were also not very diverse.

In confinement of lore it’s not that surprising that Korvosa is human-centric city with majority of humans of one ethnicity. Being the hub of colonization in the region for their parental empire (and settled by mostly their human colonists and soldiers) its no wonder that Korvosan society and traditions have preference towards chelish-ancestry humans, who do make majority of citizens. And queen-mother Domina, as probably at some degree her son Eodred II, enforced this stance, being foreign nobility that came from now Asmodean Cheliax to rule the former colony.

That said, Korvosa is still more diverse than you may think. They have sizable minority of elves and half-elves (the Guide of Korvosa mentions that elves, even their Grand Diplomat, do love to have endless affairs with locals). Janderhoff dwarfs have very good ties with the city (treaty of cooperation, that they do honor), which should imply a sizable community of dwarfs who seek to make fortune there. Halflings, while still being mistreated, aren't officially slaves and noble houses do enlist them to run their trade ships. Gnomes aren't mentioned much, but the alternative to magical school of Academae is run by one. Blood of Angels and Fiends state that tieflings and aasimars do have place in the region, so I don't imagine them being rare in Korvosa too. Heck, one pathfinder comics even puts non-savage goblins in Korvosa (as servants for nobles, but with their own scheming agenda).

Speaking of humans, indeed, the chelish ancestry seems to make the majority of movers and shakers in city government. However, this doesn't mean that outside this structure, all major NPCs are chelish too. Outside its core districts, there are a lot of varisians and shoanty (with their ethnic centered criminal organizations, in contrast to chelish). There are those who come from mixed ancestry (as Soldato kids example). Guide of Korvosa states that in the city are communities of Geb and Alkenstar people, who came with their families on invitation of Queen Domina. Arkonas trade with Vudra brought to the city not only specific guests, but simple vudrani too, as shown by Ishanty family. And being next trade hub after Magnimar in Varisian from Land of Linnorm Kings, I can see that ulfens and even minkai people aren't that much of curiosity.
Neolandus Kaleopopolis, by the way, sounds very greek to me.

In the end, there is diversity in Korvosa. It's just scattered in more lore of the books than the hardcover of the AP (and shouldn't be judged by portraits of dozen NPCs only). I'd advice to change mostly non-governmental NPCs (private organizations, like Academae for example, can and do have non-chelish professors). Leave officers, nobles (not self-made merchants), and high-ranking government types chelish.

[tonyz]

Korvosa is a port -- places with lots of access to travellers and on the border between cultures are usually more diverse, either racially or ideologically, than places far away from roads or rivers or oceans, because it's harder for people to travel there. I'd expect seaports to be more diverse than the hinterland, and trading cities more so than local villages.

Having diversity where it shouldn't be kills suspension of disbelief nearly as bad as not having any at all.

[Xenocrat]

Diversity is great for a game like Pathfinder because it leads to increased conflict and therefore more campaign hooks.

[Steff]

This is a fascinating read.. and at first I was hesitant to post something because this is one of those subjects where if you aren't careful, you can get in a situation where there is no right answer and pretty quickly you are being shunned for saying something stupid. That being said, after I thought about it I felt compelled to post something because these are important subjects and gaming definitely can definitely play a role in how we perceive them. I hope I do not overstep my bounds. If so, my apologies.

I think that while diversity is something that may very well be a noble thing to strive for, in the case of Pathfinder and by extension, Starfinder, just having diversity should not be, IMO, the end all of the game; that is to say, when designing an adventure or a campaign, the concept of diversity should add something to the story arc not just be something you plop into the adventure like a tapestry that the players act out the adventure in front of.

I don't think it's enough just to have proper ratios of humans to non-humans and be able to point at it as an accomplishment. The story should support the racial makeup of the setting. If there are large numbers of non-humans.. why? Is there a reason? Were they brought there at one time? Is the racial makeup of the city the result of various invasions and conquering actions over the centuries? i don't think you would have a tremendous amount of diversity in a drow city deep under the ground unless you counted those enslaved and/or held prisoner.

Also, I get the impression that diversity is seen through the prism as something that human cities would tend to reflect whereas other races not so much. Would you expect a large contingent of elves living deep underground with the Dwarves? Each city/area of the campaign should have a background that establishes why each race is present in whatever quantities. There are some great potential adventure hooks there I think for a gm brave enough to exploit them for material.

If Paizo was feeling really frisky they might consider an Adventure Path or some other large story arc that maybe introduces some of these contemporary issues and see where their customers land. I think most would be very open to the idea as long as the basis of the adventure still remains just that, an adventure and not a 6 month long lecture on the sins of our fathers. It is a delicate subject to say the least.

One other note. While it is fascinating to contemplate the exploration of some of these themes through gaming (especially for maybe some of the younger gamers who have not witnessed what us older gamers have), I would tend to avoid politics. The world is a complete Sh!t Show right now for a variety of reasons. Everyone has strong feelings and, for me personally, I tend to play games to get away from the constant bombardment of hate that is pushed at us every single day from a variety of sources. Be mindful of your audience as it were so that your efforts do not have the opposite of your intended effect. In my 35 years of playing, games have always brought people together to have fun and escape for a few hours. It would be tragic if they were ever to be used to divide people further.

V/R Steff

[MadScientistWorking]

tonyz wrote:

Korvosa is a port -- places with lots of access to travellers and on the border between cultures are usually more diverse, either racially or ideologically, than places far away from roads or rivers or oceans, because it's harder for people to travel there. I'd expect seaports to be more diverse than the hinterland, and trading cities more so than local villages.

Having diversity where it shouldn't be kills suspension of disbelief nearly as bad as not having any at all.

Actually for the most part Golarion shouldn't remain as white as a marshmallow given that even back during the middle ages most if Europe wasn't that white. We just fooled ourselves into thinking it was.

[Aaron Goddard]

Diversity shouldn't take priority over realism though

[Rysky]

What...

Just... what?

... what?

1) diversity is realistic.

2) this is a fantasy game.

[James Jacobs]

Rysky wrote:

1) diversity is realistic.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :-)

[Christopher Rowe]

What if I were to tell you there were substantial numbers of free black Africans on every continent except Australia and Antarctica by the year 1530 CE? What if were to tell you that there were substantively ethnically diverse communities in the British Isles before the time of Christ? What if I were to tell you that the historical record on Golarion demonstrates an even longer history of economic, cultural, religious, and social exchange than the historical record here on Earth?

[thejeff]

Rysky wrote:

What...

Just... what?

... what?

1) diversity is realistic.

2) this is a fantasy game.

Diversity is usually realistic.

Especially in major ports cities and trading hubs. Ashkar's suggestions above about how to incorporate that into Korvosa are nice. Different minority groups with their own reasons for being their and their own subcultures and power structures within a majority Chelish population and ruling caste, rather than just swirling everyone together and randomly assigning ethnicities to NPCs regardless of role or position.

Similarly not every isolated village needs a full complement of races and ethnicities. It doesn't make sense everywhere.

That's what I'd mean if I said "Diversity shouldn't take priority over realism."

[Christopher Rowe]

But given Avistan’s and Garund’s deep, deep, lengthy, lengthy history, it “makes sense” more often than the opposite in this setting.

[Lord Fyre]

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

1) diversity is realistic.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :-)

Except, Korvosa is founding in Chelish culture. Unfortunately, Cheliax is founded on racism and other Lawful Evil ideas.

[James Jacobs]

Lord Fyre wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

1) diversity is realistic.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :-)

Except, Korvosa is founding in Chelish culture. Unfortunately, Cheliax is founded on racism and other Lawful Evil ideas.

This has nothing to do with the fact that diversity is realistic.

[Lord Fyre]

James Jacobs wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

1) diversity is realistic.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :-)

Except, Korvosa is founding in Chelish culture. Unfortunately, Cheliax is founded on racism and other Lawful Evil ideas.

This has nothing to do with the fact that diversity is realistic.

That is true. It does, partly, explain the lack of People of Color in Korvosa though.

(Look how they treat the Varisians.)

[MadScientistWorking]

Lord Fyre wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Rysky wrote:

1) diversity is realistic.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :-)

Except, Korvosa is founding in Chelish culture. Unfortunately, Cheliax is founded on racism and other Lawful Evil ideas.

No no it doesn't. In fact the whole dam plot of the adventure has people of color as a lynchpin to it and yet......