FiddlersGreen wrote:
Am I missing something, or should your soldier not be jumping from 16 CON/WIS to 18 CON/WIS at level 20?
Edit: Your latest solarion stats have the same issue for WIS/CHA
That is how it works.
If you raise a 16 it goes to an 18.
If you raise a 17 it goes to an 18.
16 or less add +2
17 or more add +1
HWalsh. That above scenario had enemies spread apart. You had the Solarion and Soldier moving around a bunch. But, you gave the soldier a +6 bonus to damage from against the odds. They should have +2 because the enemies are spread out. This probably doesn't change much in gameplay, but the Solarion really deals 5 more damage, not 1.
FiddlersGreen wrote:
01: 18/11/10/10/10/14
05: 19/13/12/12/10/14
10: 20/15/14/12/12/14
15: 21/17/16/12/14/14
20: 22/18/16/12/16/16 (enhancement +6STR, +2 DEX heavy armor, +4 CON. I do take extra resolve to get 15 resolve, avoiding the 16 resolve stabilisation breakpoint at level 20)
Final scores: 28/20/20/12/16/16 (very comparable to your soldier's stats if you correct the addition errors in them)
I reckon with those stats you have almost...
This is one of the more popular builds for melee Solarians, but it runs into a couple small problems.
The main issue is low resolve and low save DCs:
Your Supernova, at lower levels is a great power. You will also run into the "Nimble Moves" issue.
Nimble Moves is a very important feat for SFS, and you need a 15 Dex to take it. If your GM isn't SFS and doesn't use Difficult Terrain you can get by without it. So you really want though, in general, to have a 15 by 5. A little bit of difficult terrain can utterly kill your melee damage output.
Ah, I misread it. I will need to adjust my stat plans for some of my characters.
Amend stat array for my solarion to this:
01: 18/11/10/10/10/14
05: 19/13/12/10/10/14
10: 20/15/14/10/12/14
15: 21/17/16/10/14/14
20: 22/18/18/10/18/14 (enhancement +6STR, +2 DEX heavy armor, +4 CON. I do take extra resolve to get 14 resolve, avoiding the 16 resolve stabilisation breakpoint at level 20)
I am fairly confident that once you give the solarion max STR, his damage starts to outstrip the soldier.
As for DCs, what revelations are you using that require DCs? As a melee solarion, I can't see myself wanting to use many of them, if any. I can still get nimble moves later, though between flight items and defy gravity I don't think it is the most important feat to grab early, especially if my aim is to use haste circuits to get full attacks as much as possible instead of charging.
CactusUnicorn wrote: HWalsh. That above scenario had enemies spread apart. You had the Solarion and Soldier moving around a bunch. But, you gave the soldier a +6 bonus to damage from against the odds. They should have +2 because the enemies are spread out. This probably doesn't change much in gameplay, but the Solarion really deals 5 more damage, not 1. It depends, greatly, on the positioning. I addressed this in the post though. They weren't moving around much or I'd have had the Soldier and Solarian using charges. Which would have thrown the damage way in favor of the Soldier.
In this case I used a smaller melee friendly map where they could remain in relative range for ease of figuring out where they were. I gave them the option of moving every round, I did not say that they did.
HWalsh wrote: J4RH34D wrote: I feel that that has succesfully shown that your build is not the be all and end all for the Solarian. Uhm...
You are aware that mine and OldSkool's builds do THE EXACT SAME DAMAGE right? I missed that your build had the 26 str as well.
Apologies.
I will say that OldSkool's build does however meet your save dc's of 16.
Yes he uses a feat to do so. Note that you did not stipulate that as a requirement to meet the dc's.
Now we shouldn't actually be comparing your and his solarian, but rather both solarians to the soldier.
That soldier can hit stuff good. He has 6 skill ranks a level, and could spend some feats on boosting some skills.
He can get a +3 insight bonus max from skill focus I believe.
The solarian effectively gets 6 free skill focuses and the same ranks.
He also has the ability to be a party face.
He also hits stuff gooder.
He also has out of combat options the soldier simply doesn't
I want to check something.
The avg will save of a cr 19 is +16.
The Solarian has a dc 26 charm person.
The opponents have a 45% chance of failing that.
So the solarian could try to simply remove all three opponents from the fight that way.
The chance none fail is 16.6%
The chance 1 fails is 45%
The chance 2 fail is 20.25%
The chance all 3 fail is 9.11%
So not massively high.
However the solarian has a 9% chance of completely ending the combat in 3 rounds.
He can also be doing things like leaving trails of fire while he does this.
It is a potential option. It might work. Might not. He has a 83.3% chance of taking out at least 1 opponent in the first 3 rounds this way.
FiddlersGreen wrote: Ah, I misread it. I will need to adjust my stat plans for some of my characters.
Amend stat array for my solarion to this:
01: 18/11/10/10/10/14
05: 19/13/12/10/10/14
10: 20/15/14/10/12/14
15: 21/17/16/10/14/14
20: 22/18/18/10/18/14 (enhancement +6STR, +2 DEX heavy armor, +4 CON. I do take extra resolve to get 14 resolve, avoiding the 16 resolve stabilisation breakpoint at level 20)
I'll provide the feedback that I can.
Quote: I am fairly confident that once you give the solarion max STR, his damage starts to outstrip the soldier. Not really, no. You'll gain 1 damage overall. You will outstrip them, unless everyone is charging, then you will fall (way) behind. Even if you have the extra 1 damage.
Example:
The Soldier will average 188 on a double strike charge w/o Deadly Aim.
The Solarian will average 116 (with a 22 base Str and +6 PU) on a charge.
You *will* outstrip him on really long very close range fights, but it tends to be by such a small number that it doesn't alter most outcomes.
Quote: As for DCs, what revelations are you using that require DCs? As a melee solarion, I can't see myself wanting to use many of them, if any. Your Early Levels really benefit from Supernova, as does fights with large numbers of mooks. Later on, when filling out your character, Hypnotic Glow can be very handy, moreso if you don't have a high Charisma for bluff/diplomacy.
Also note:
With your build your only Starship combat option is Pilot, as you don't have the dex for gunner (especially at lower levels) meaning you effectively only have 3 skill points per level. Meaning you will automatically lose out on most of the benefit from the Skilled and Sidreal Influence class features.
HWalsh wrote: CactusUnicorn wrote: HWalsh. That above scenario had enemies spread apart. You had the Solarion and Soldier moving around a bunch. But, you gave the soldier a +6 bonus to damage from against the odds. They should have +2 because the enemies are spread out. This probably doesn't change much in gameplay, but the Solarion really deals 5 more damage, not 1. It depends, greatly, on the positioning. I addressed this in the post though. They weren't moving around much or I'd have had the Soldier and Solarian using charges. Which would have thrown the damage way in favor of the Soldier.
In this case I used a smaller melee friendly map where they could remain in relative range for ease of figuring out where they were. I gave them the option of moving every round, I did not say that they did. And that is one of the problems I think, it really underplays some of the Solarions mobility options. Yes that isn't something that can easily be quantified but it is a point in a Solarions favour. A Soldier getting pinned down by long range fire is going to take more hits getting in than a Solarion who can stay in full cover for 3 rounds and then teleport behind the enemy. Or if he takes Solar Accelaration instead he can move and full attack after 3 turns, massively increasing the chance he'll get full attacks against enemies who don't just stand there and get hit, and he is increasing the entire parties DPR by giving them Haste as well! Its why the RAW numbers don't tell the whole story.
Yes purely mathematically in the dullest situation I can envision as a player the Solarion lags behind. I think anyone trying to disprove that is going to have a hard time. But I have yet to run a combat so incredibly static as that.
I feel like some compromises need to be made somewhere. Otherwise you're expecting the solarion to outperform the soldier on every front, which is not fair to the soldier. So I'm perfectly comfortable with a lower supernova DC since I see my main goal as aiming to get full attacks as much as possible. For that reasons, I also aim to get Ray of Light as my zenith at level 9 since that gives me something the soldier simply cannot match - instant repositioning, whether it is to jump to the enemy technomancer or instantaneously retreat.
Could you give us a breakdown of your solarion and soldier weapon damage? What weapons and class features are they using?
Malk
In the situation that Hwalsh describes, the solarian still comes out ahead. The round by round breakdown post.
We are covering the same issues again.
Hwalsh feels that the save bonuses being lower is not made up for by what the solarian gets.
Many other people feel that things like sidereal influence, revelations, combat utility, out of combat options, and doing more damage, all make the matter a non-issue.
I think at this point we need to accept that HWalsh feels the solarian needs a save booster.
He also needs to accept that there are very many people who feel that a boost to saves would make the solarion outclass the soldier, and would make it too powerful. Basically that the saves are a non issue.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would like to point out that with a +16 to saves, as in OldSkool's build, the solarian has a 50% chance of passing all ability saves of equal CR, while the soldier with 18 gets a 60% chance to pass.
I feel everything the solarian gets instead of the soldier makes the lower saves a non-issue and leaves the two classes balanced against each other.
J4RH34D wrote: HWalsh wrote: J4RH34D wrote: I feel that that has succesfully shown that your build is not the be all and end all for the Solarian. Uhm...
You are aware that mine and OldSkool's builds do THE EXACT SAME DAMAGE right? I missed that your build had the 26 str as well.
Apologies.
I will say that OldSkool's build does however meet your save dc's of 16.
Yes he uses a feat to do so. Note that you did not stipulate that as a requirement to meet the dc's. No, but that is a technicality because I was making a direct comparison of the other classes being able to hit a minimum +16 on a low save without using feats.
Once I apply feats the Solarian falls back to the old position it was in. It was a relative cause, so yes, Oldskool's build cheats the point of the argument.
If we are assuming that they can all take the feats then the benchmark moves as well, moving to a +18 rather than +16.
Quote: Now we shouldn't actually be comparing your and his solarian, but rather both solarians to the soldier. Our Solarians are actually quite similar. He just doesn't see the save differences as a factor at all. If I drop my Solarian into that same scenario it has an identical outcome.
Quote: That soldier can hit stuff good. He has 6 skill ranks a level, and could spend some feats on boosting some skills.
He can get a +3 insight bonus max from skill focus I believe.
He can double strike off of a charge, he can do a number of things.
Quote: The solarian effectively gets 6 free skill focuses and the same ranks. This is not really a benefit. The DCs in this game a VERY HIGHLY TUNED if you look at the differences. A skill focus in a skill with no ranks grants little to no benefit.
Quote: He also has the ability to be a party face. He can arguably do this. If the party doesn't have an Envoy or Operative, who will both do the job better. Even then, he can only really do this if he invests 3 of his 4 points per rank to cover Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy.
Quote: He also hits stuff gooder. No he doesn't. He hits things the same, and arguably hits 5% less often.
Quote: He also has out of combat options the soldier simply doesn't Not really. He has really 1 out of combat ability. The Soldier has their own benefits that you are ignoring. These are NOT Pathfinder Fighters they have out of combat utility and skills like everyone else.
Quote: I want to check something.
The avg will save of a cr 19 is +16.
The Solarian has a dc 26 charm person.
The opponents have a 45% chance of failing that.
So the solarian could try to simply remove all three opponents from the fight that way.
No. No he can't. You misunderstand the function of Hypnotic Glow.
1. It can only be used on 1 target at any 1 time, you can't hypnotic glow 2 targets at the same time. So at best you can remove 1 enemy from the field, if they don't make their save.
2. He doesn't have a +16, he has a +21 because he gets a +5 bonus for being threatened or attacked by you or your allies.
Quote: The chance none fail is 16.6% It is single target, not a radius. You have to spend a standard action for each target and once you snare 1, you can't snare another until the first one is out.
Quote: The chance 1 fails is 45% If combat has broken out the chance one fails is 20%
Quote: The chance 2 fail is 20.25% You can't have 2 under at a time.
Quote: The chance all 3 fail is 9.11% See above. You can't do that.
Quote: So not massively high.
However the solarian has a 9% chance of completely ending the combat in 3 rounds.
No he doesn't. He can't affect more than 1 target at any one time and cannot affect another target while one is charmed.
Quote: He can also be doing things like leaving trails of fire while he does this. That power is not very good, especially at the levels they are at. If that power did significant damage, even equal to 1 attack at that level perhaps.
Quote: It is a potential option. It might work. Might not. He has a 83.3% chance of taking out at least 1 opponent in the first 3 rounds this way. No, he doesn't. Every enemy there is being threatened, it is a fight, they have a +5 circumstance bonus. They need to roll a 4 to fail at DC 26.
Here, I pulled out a d20.
12
8
8
All three pass. You spent 3 rounds and accomplished nothing.
Let us do this again:
2 - You got one, and that is all you can do.
And a third set:
7
11
16
All pass.
5
16
13
All pass.
15
5
13
All pass.
Out of 13 attempts 1 succeeds.
There is a reason why Hypnotic Glow isn't rated highly in my guide.
I agree with J4RH34D. I also think it's huge that the solarion can get both soul furnace and glow of life, whereas the soldier's options are limited to only one inferior version of one of those abilities. It's a good example of how some of the solarion's class abilities pull ahead of the soldier's equivalents.
I also agree with Malk that the solarion is generally alot more mobile. Between defy gravity, stellar rush and ray of light, his ability to close in on an enemy is quite good.
Once you accept the lower DCs on nova and hypnotic, the problems with a lower CHA aren't really that pronounced anymore. I mean, I'll still nova if the situation calls for it, but most of the time I expect to be full-attacking and saving my zenith for repositioning with ray of light.
What I'm interested in really is the DPR comparison of a full attacking max str solarion in photon mode vs a soldier.
I missed the tiny bit in the middle. There is still an 86% chance you take an opponent out of the picture before the combat even starts, unless they have guns trained at the door and are railroading into a fight.
"If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus to its saving throw."
The solarian walking into the room while his party hides out side and trying to sweet talk all of them is certainly not "Threaten[ing] or attack[ing]".
HWalsh wrote: He has really 1 out of combat ability. He has:
Hypnotic Glow
Stealth Warp
Defy Gravity
Astrologic Sense
Gravity Boost
Flare
Yes, some of those are significantly worse than others. I would however consider both Hypnotic Glow and Astrologic Sense to be very good out of combat utility.
HWalsh wrote: A skill focus in a skill with no ranks grants little to no benefit. OldSkool's Build has 6 skill ranks, he can take full advantage of it.
With some of the revelations that boost skills, he is even better.
HWalsh wrote: Me wrote: He also hits stuff gooder. No he doesn't. He hits things the same, and arguably hits 5% less often.
He hits the same on a full attack, and for more damage, IE he hits stuff gooder. This was not intended as a serious point, but more to point out their combat utility is roughly equal, to edging the Solarian slightly ahead.
HWalsh wrote: He can double strike off of a charge, he can do a number of things. This tied into the "Soldiers can hit stuff good" point.
HWalsh wrote: He can arguably do this. If the party doesn't have an Envoy or Operative, who will both do the job better. Even then, he can only really do this if he invests 3 of his 4 points per rank to cover Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy. You very seldom need all three, and the Solarian has 6 skill ranks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again we are basically saying we assign different values to diferrent things in the class.
We are arguing old points again and repeating ourselves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why do you comepletely disregard the bonus of sidereal influence? It is a potent bonus on a maxed skill, and allows the solarian to be better at a skill than the soldier ever will be? Does this just hold no weight with you? I am honestly asking, I want to understand your value system.
Ok, I'm gonna do my own DPR comparison
Soldier
28 str, weapon focus
+30 to hit, +24 to hit on full attack
Longsword, dimensional slice 14d8+20+13 damage (spec, melee striker & str) avg=96
Solarion
28 str, weapon focus
+30 to hit, +25 to hit on full attack
True crystal solarion weapon 12d6+6d6+20+4+10+9(spec, photon mode, plasma sheath, str) avg=106
Am I missing anything? I'm coming up with an extra +1 to hit for the solarion on a full attack and an average of 10 more damage per hit. This is not counting the solarion's corona.
Well, 500 posts in and no end in sight. So far this thread has convinced me that solarians are doing just fine, but could benefit from more material - in the solarian's case, to increase build diversity. That's not unique to the solarian, it goes for most of the system. To pick an example, Power Armor is currently pretty bare-bones.
I'm also convinced that HWalsh need to lighten up a little bit! I hope your wheelchair is fixed soon. :)
FiddlersGreen wrote: Ok, I'm gonna do my own DPR comparison
Soldier
28 str, weapon focus
+30 to hit, +24 to hit on full attack
Longsword, dimensional slice 14d8+20+13 damage (spec, melee striker & str) avg=96
Solarion
28 str, weapon focus
+30 to hit, +25 to hit on full attack
True crystal solarion weapon 12d6+6d6+20+4+10+9(spec, photon mode, plasma sheath, str) avg=106
Am I missing anything? I'm coming up with an extra +1 to hit for the solarion on a full attack and an average of 10 more damage per hit. This is not counting the solarion's corona.
No, you aren't missing anything.
You are at +1 to hit and +1 higher damage than I am. You can add an extra +10 with Deadly Aim. You have deficiencies in other areas and are completely shut down by any difficult terrain until minimum level 10.
Corona is... Problematic...
The mechanics on it are as follows:
1. You need to activate it as a standard action - At higher levels of the example this means 14 damage. It isn't worth using your standard attack unless you have nothing else to do.
2. It only does 1/2 your Solarian damage, at level 20 that is 10 damage. That you spent a standard action to get and you will lose after using any Zenith revelation and/or Supernova. You absolutely want to use Solar Acceleration as soon as you can. This damage is so low it isn't worth actually turning on.
Seriously, at the level you can throw out damage, you are wasting, with your build, between an average of 116 and 106 damage for an average of 14 and 10 per round. Not only will anything with any fire resistance outright laugh at that, but you are giving up a LOT of potential damage for almost no effect.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FiddlersGreen wrote: What I'm interested in really is the DPR comparison of a full attacking max str solarion in photon mode vs a soldier. Hiruma Kai has already provided those numbers. It’s nicely done — it provides a detailed level by level comparison, and it’s in terms of expected damage, as one wants, not average damage per hit (which doesn’t take hit chances into account). See here.
I wasn't counting corona anyway.
Deadly aim is a wash since both benefit equally from it.
The only real deficiency with my build vs a soldier is a lower resolve total, but for reasons explained earlier, I don't see that as the worst problem, especially in light of my revelations. Defy gravity will get me over alot of difficult terrain from level 6.
I'm still seeing the solarion as coming out on top overall.
Edit: Thanks Porridge, I already did the level 20 calculations, but glad to see the calculations for earlier levels too. Solidifies my view of the solarion as the superior melee combatant, with greater mobility and better recovery abilities, but admittedly slightly squishier for the lower resolve. Soldier will have the benefit of extra feats, which I think will keep them both competitive overall as more feats and revelations come out.
FiddlersGreen wrote: I wasn't counting corona anyway.
Deadly aim is a wash since both benefit equally from it.
The only real deficiency with my build vs a soldier is a lower resolve total, but for reasons explained earlier, I don't see that as the worst problem, especially in light of my revelations. Defy gravity will get me over alot of difficult terrain from level 6.
I'm still seeing the solarion as coming out on top overall.
You'll out-damage the standard Melee Solarian by 1-3 damage per round. Depending on how many attacks hit.
HWalsh wrote: FiddlersGreen wrote: I wasn't counting corona anyway.
Deadly aim is a wash since both benefit equally from it.
The only real deficiency with my build vs a soldier is a lower resolve total, but for reasons explained earlier, I don't see that as the worst problem, especially in light of my revelations. Defy gravity will get me over alot of difficult terrain from level 6.
I'm still seeing the solarion as coming out on top overall.
You'll out-damage the standard Melee Solarian by 1-3 damage per round. Depending on how many attacks hit. How is that? You said my calculations for the damage of the soldier and the solarion at level 20 was correct, and the solarion had +1 to hit on a full attack and 10 extra damage per hit over the soldier.
Hiruma Kai's calculations also put the solarion consistently ahead at the lower levels.
Fiddlers, he is saying your SOLARIAN will do 1-3 more damage than ANOTHER SOLARIAN with a more normal build.
Also, it is important to note that the +1 str actually increases your damage by 5% per attack due to chance to hit, and the bonus from the strength.
Ah. Thanks J4RH34D. I'm not sure what is meant by a "more normal build" though. Perhaps more charisma? But even if I did put more points in charisma, I wouldn't compromise my STR for it if I saw my primary job as being to hit things.
All things considered, I think the solarian works just fine with a lower resolve score. I can accept some relative squishiness in exchange for those revelations, especially the mobility afforded by the revelations mentioned earlier.
It certainly breaks the mold of other classes by playing with a lower resolve pool, but I think it still works just fine. Increased stabilisation cost evens the playing field, and having only 2 revelations that utilise resolve (both of which are reactive) means that a smaller resolve pool is not that big a deal after the first few levels.
I'd probably welcome an errata that solarions could change their core stat to str, but I'm not convinced it is needed.
FiddlersGreen wrote: HWalsh wrote: FiddlersGreen wrote: I wasn't counting corona anyway.
Deadly aim is a wash since both benefit equally from it.
The only real deficiency with my build vs a soldier is a lower resolve total, but for reasons explained earlier, I don't see that as the worst problem, especially in light of my revelations. Defy gravity will get me over alot of difficult terrain from level 6.
I'm still seeing the solarion as coming out on top overall.
You'll out-damage the standard Melee Solarian by 1-3 damage per round. Depending on how many attacks hit. How is that? You said my calculations for the damage of the soldier and the solarion at level 20 was correct, and the solarion had +1 to hit on a full attack and 10 extra damage per hit over the soldier.
Hiruma Kai's calculations also put the solarion consistently ahead at the lower levels. The difference, pre-level 6, actually will put the Soldier ahead of you in damage. Believe me, this isn't my first rodeo.
Here is why:
As a melee Solarian your first Revelation (that you select) will be Stellar Rush. It is our early bread and butter. You could get Plasma Sheath at 4, but you don't want to unbalance your Revelations. So your Plasma Sheath will come on at level 6 give or take, if you push it. (That is up to you.)
At level 5, for example, you'll have:
Weapon Damage +5 +5 +1, or Weapon Damage +10
The Soldier with a similar build will have:
Weapon Damage +5 +2 +5, or Weapon Damage +11
I'll have to look at Kai's math, but if he's saying at low levels you're ahead, that simply isn't correct. Not unless you are unbalancing your revelations, and you really want to avoid that early on. You may even want to wait until later for Plasma Sheath because it only provides 1/2 level extra damage.
(See the AP's, clusters of enemies are common, and you will want to Supernova regularly, especially at low levels when it is most effective.)
Where you "out damage" them at low levels is that you get your charge at level 2, they get theirs at level 5.
At level 6, if you want, Plasma Sheath will come online and will bring you to weapon code +14f damage, this is the stretch where you will pass them by the most noticeable amount.
This is approximately 3 extra damage per hit.
Things will start to shift around level 10-11 again.
The Solarian's Onslaught comes on line at 13, their Soldier's Onslaught comes online at 11.
This is where things get a little hinky for you.
At 11, you'll both have +7 Strength (20 natural and +4 Upgrade):
Damage Code +7 +11 +2 +5 (strength, weapon spec, photon, plasma sheath) or Damage Code +25
At 11, he'll have +7, +11, +3 (strength, weapon spec, 1/2 strength added again) or Damage Code +21 - While you are ahead, it is by a very small amount... And if you are charging he'll be capable of making 2 attacks, something you can never do.
Which is where the "King of Melee" becomes situational. If people are doing lots of charges, the Soldier leaves the Solarian in the dirt because of being able to double strike on a charge.
Now, it is true, you will start to pull ahead steadily after that. Your plasma sheath being the main reason for it. However, usually, his being able to get off more attacks than you on average will tend to have him come out on top in highly mobile fights.
I'm not sure the double strike is that valuable in light of how haste works now. But even so, I'm glad the soldier gets some advantages over the solarion, because I want them to be viable alternatives to one another, not for one to be absolutely better than the other in every conceivable way.
The blitz soldier can charge and full attack but needs a straight line, and if he's doing that in a way that can't be replicated with a haste circuit you'd need to be looking at a rather big map, with a much higher chance of there being things in the way. If a situation comes up where the soldier gets to charge something I can't reach with haste, I'm happy to give him that.
FiddlersGreen wrote: I'm not sure the double strike is that valuable in light of how haste works now. But even so, I'm glad the soldier gets some advantages over the solarion, because I want them to be viable alternatives to one another, not for one to be absolutely better than the other in every conceivable way.
The blitz soldier can charge and full attack but needs a straight line, and if he's doing that in a way that can't be replicated with a haste circuit you'd need to be looking at a rather big map, with a much higher chance of there being things in the way. If a situation comes up where the soldier gets to charge something I can't reach with haste, I'm happy to give him that.
Difficult terrain, which is why having a 15 Dex earlier is chosen by most instead of going 18 strength. That 15 Dex at level 5 not only:
1. Gives you a GREAT role in Space Combat (with a Lashunta you can hang with an operative almost)
2. Stops the death knell from hitting you.
See, you can't always rely on Defy Gravity to get you through difficult terrain, and you won't really reliably have Haste until a certain point. So you will have this dead zone where not being able to circumvent difficult terrain (which the APs seem to love) can hurt you a lot.
Since most of the game happens at the mid level of 6-12 you don't want to have a the bulk of the game handicapped by some bad flooring.
This is why the standard Melee Solarian (and both Optimization Guides and General Guides) all urge you to go 16 Strength over 18 Strength to start.
The "Standard" array is:
16/13/10/10/10/14
Not: 18/11/10/10/10/14
Where the Lashunta Korasha Array is: 16/13/10/10/08/16
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I have little doubt that this thread is negatively impacting sales of Starfinder.
Ravingdork wrote: I have little doubt that this thread is negatively impacting sales of Starfinder. Oh come on... That is a silly statement.
Edit: And quite frankly this is a real problem, unlike the bazillion "Martials Need Nice Things" threads over in the PF section.
A haste circuit allows you a move with increased speed, as opposed to a charge which needs to be in a straight line. Sure there will be times when the blitz soldier gets his full attack when I can't with my haste circuit, but I don't think they will be that often, and in any event, I don't need an absolute advantage over the soldier. Defy gravity will also covers several bases that will frustrate the soldier in other cases.
And I don't think death knell exists in starfinder (and who uses it anyway?).
I still don't think the solarion is absolutely behind in his options. He just has different ones. And personally, I prefer them. I really don't think he has a problem.
It's really coming down to a matter of preference.
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I would gladly trade +2 bonus worth of saves for the vast increase in utility Solarion get over Soldiers via revelations.
SO no, I don't think it is a real problem. I think it is a minor concern that you are blowing way out of proportion.
Ravingdork wrote: I have little doubt that this thread is negatively impacting sales of Starfinder. Don't worry RD, I think I've just about satisfied my curiosity about what this thread was about. I think I'm done here.
FiddlersGreen wrote: A haste circuit allows you a move with increased speed, as opposed to a charge which needs to be in a straight line. Sure there will be times when the blitz soldier gets his full attack when I can't with my haste circuit, but I don't think they will be that often, and in any event, I don't need an absolute advantage over the soldier. Defy gravity will also covers several bases that will frustrate the soldier in other cases.
And I don't think death knell exists in starfinder (and who uses it anyway?).
I still don't think the solarion is absolutely behind in his options. He just has different ones. And personally, I prefer them. I really don't think he has a problem.
It's really coming down to a matter of preference.
By the Death Knell I refer to difficult terrain. It can be a SERIOUS issue with Starfinder. You can choose to not prepare for it at your own peril.
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HWalsh wrote: I'll have to look at Kai's math, but if he's saying at low levels you're ahead, that is correct, but I don't think building a Solarian that way is a good idea. FTFY.
:P
Thought this thread was going to die down as the people posting on it could agree on where the Solarian was at in relation to the Soldier. Now I find there's people coming on that thread that have just skimmed through the thread.
1st POINT - Everyone agreed in optimal settings, the Solarian can out damage the soldier by a SLIGHT amount. People mostly agreed that the damage difference was pretty insignificant as it changed from situation to situation. So this was pretty much as treated as equal, if not VERY slightly in the Solarian Favor.
2nd POINT - Everyone agreed that the Solarian lags a BIT behind in saves. While not a major penalty the Soldier does come out ahead here.
3rd POINT - Everyone agreed that the melee Solarian has 4 base stats (STR, DEX, CON, & CHA) while the melee Soldier only had 3 base stats (STR, DEX, & CON). This allowed a bit more flexibility in the Soldier build.
4th POINT - Soldiers have the feats and can afford to bump up their INT a bit to allow them some skill flexibility. Solarian's get Sidereal Influence. Which is better? Debatable.
So the question then becomes -
Do the Solarians Revelations make up for the slight lagging behind in Saves and Flexibility the Soldier has?
Remember, the Soldier gains Feats & Combat Styles where the Solarian gains Revelations and Solarian powers. This is the part that most people posting how great the Solarian is vs the Soldier seem to always forget.
I don't think people are ignoring Soldiers class features. Its included whenever someone talks about Charge advantage or something similar. What seems to be the case is that while those are used as pro's for the Soldier, the ability to do things like teleport your entire party isn't being considered a noteworthy advantage for the Solarion.
Malk_Content wrote: I don't think people are ignoring Soldiers class features. Its included whenever someone talks about Charge advantage or something similar. What seems to be the case is that while those are used as pro's for the Soldier, the ability to do things like teleport your entire party isn't being considered a noteworthy advantage for the Solarion. This here seems to be part of the problem. It's like people are assuming the Solarian can have all these powers up and running at the same time. This is not true. A Solarian starts combat with none of these powers up and running and it takes actions to turn (activate) these powers and the big use powers usually turn all these powers off.
Let's take the Power you used as a example. The Zenith Revelation you can pick up at level 9. Wormholes is a Graviton power that takes 3 rounds to charge up and use. So to use this power you have to wait 3 rounds and be in Graviton Mode. Meaning the Solarian is now lagging way behind the Soldiers DPR for a Utility Power that can only come into use when the fight is almost over.
I'm willing to admit Grav Mode is a nice Utility mode and has some very good situational uses. The Solarian is just giving up a decent amount of damage to be in this mode.
We aren't trying to compare it in terms of DPR. We are exactly saying they have these utility things that are hard to quantify mathematically but are the pro to counter the slight mathermatically cons they have. It is comparing apples to oranges, which is many peoples point.
EDIT: Not entirely true, some are trying to compare it in terms of DPR, which I think is a bit of a folly where you end up splitting hairs over damage that probably won't be the difference between a kill or not at such high levels.
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Matt2VK wrote: Let's take the Power you used as a example. The Zenith Revelation you can pick up at level 9. Wormholes is a Graviton power that takes 3 rounds to charge up and use. So to use this power you have to wait 3 rounds and be in Graviton Mode. Meaning the Solarian is now lagging way behind the Soldiers DPR for a Utility Power that can only come into use when the fight is almost over.
I'm willing to admit Grav Mode is a nice Utility mode and has some very good situational uses. The Solarian is just giving up a decent amount of damage to be in this mode.
I had to double check the wording, but it looks to me like you can use a zenith ability in round 3. The atunement is done at the beginning of your round.
Even in HWalsh's example, the fight lasted 8 rounds. The lag for a zenith ability to activate can still be a concern, but unlike with Pathfinder I do not think the fight will be over in that short a time.
My experience so far is that the Starfinder fights tend to last more rounds, but the time to get through each of those rounds is slightly less. There are fewer rounds in the Pathfinder fights, but often each round takes significantly more time in play to complete.
The problem with trying to balance things is, frankly, so much of it is situational.
Using the APs, for example, there are few good places to use the Solarian utility powers.
1. Pull people out of cover with Black Hole.
You can't really do that.
2. Stick them in place with X!
A power that can only be used on a given target once. For one round.
3. Use Hypnotic Glow to...
I already explained that at length.
4. Use a revelation!
In round 3. If you're in the right mode for it. Things like Wormhole are usually not even needed.
People seem to think the Solarion powers are mega amazing, but as I've shown... They're not.
I mean Hypnotic Glow is a revelation that, effectively, anyone can get by the feat Connection Inkling. It's a 1st level spell.
I think that one of the big barriers is that the zenith revelations are cool as hell, but for a lot of the utility revelations, you need to spend 3 rounds setting them up, and by the time they're ready, circumstances may have changed. I was wondering how impactful or unbalancing it could be to allow Solarians begin combat fully attuned, and when they switch mode they become immediately fully attuned, but zenith revelations cause a slow bleedoff of stellar power, remaining attuned but deactivating all of their active revelations (so they have to use actions to amp up again) and they get locked into an attunement for 3 rounds.
I theory, the biggest obvious change is that you can open a fight with one of your zeniths. I would like to imagine that this could lead to interesting tactical choices like "I could have a big impact by changing to graviton and activating black hole this round, but is the impact large enough to eat the denial of my photon revelations for 3 rounds?"
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Porridge wrote: HWalsh wrote: I'll have to look at Kai's math, but if he's saying at low levels you're ahead, that is correct, but I don't think building a Solarian that way is a good idea. FTFY.
:P true but its easy to avoid, just grab jump boots or pack and your great
over play one of the Minotaur's :P
HWalsh wrote: The problem with trying to balance things is, frankly, so much of it is situational.
Using the APs, for example, there are few good places to use the Solarian utility powers.
1. Pull people out of cover with Black Hole.
You can't really do that.
2. Stick them in place with X!
A power that can only be used on a given target once. For one round.
3. Use Hypnotic Glow to...
I already explained that at length.
4. Use a revelation!
In round 3. If you're in the right mode for it. Things like Wormhole are usually not even needed.
People seem to think the Solarion powers are mega amazing, but as I've shown... They're not.
I mean Hypnotic Glow is a revelation that, effectively, anyone can get by the feat Connection Inkling. It's a 1st level spell.
Aren't you admitting here, that a Photon Solarion is pretty much identical to a Melee Soldier and that the only area that you can see a Solarion falling behind in, is when they use Graviton mode? So would that not mean the ONLY part that Solarions need buffs for is the Graviton mode, to make it more inline and useful for melee combat (Hint, it's not supposed to be a melee style, compare it to Technomancers and Mystics)
And why only Soldier, why ignore the other 2 melees? Melee Operative, with all the weird wordings and rules, such as it's more optimal for an operative to go prone and trick shot from the ground while slithering around like a snake. And a Melee Combat Drone for Mechanics?
If it's just a battle as you say between Soldiers and Solarions, then with both of them being the 2 best at melee, then you can't justify either getting buffed if everyone is lagging behind.
This is why this discussion is pointless, compare how Solarion does against all classes, do a melee build for all, a ranged build for all and finally a powers build for all and see where each class compares. because I highly doubt solarion will fall that far behind every other class if you do this.
And that excuse of, well if there is an Envoy or Operative then a Solarion skills are useless, is incredibly lazy and that implies that if someone in your party, ultimately on your side, that if they can do a skill better than you then a solarion is worthless. Which is the biggest load of crap ever, just because an Envoy could make a better Captain does not mean they will invest the skill points into it or even want to be that role. They could just as well want to be the Science Officer, Mechanic, Gunner or Pilot. Because you make a baseless assumption on a fictional party and then put them in a position deliberately to make the Solarion look worse is not indicative of a problem more than a poorly built character sucking.
To those who haven't caught on yet, Solarions are more inline with Pathfinder Monks than any other class, the issue they face is lack of expanded material and considering Paizo has stated that certain DC's will be adjusted and that with only 1 monster manual to go by Saves are not that great of a measure to use when you look at high level creatures as there is not a great many of them to choose from as examples.
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HWalsh wrote: If you're in the right mode for it. Don't most of your powers operate independently of mode?
They just get a little better if you happen to be in the right mode.
I could be in graviton mode, and use a photon revelation without hindrance. Nothing in the rules indicates that I can't do this.
steven lawson wrote: Aren't you admitting here, that a Photon Solarion is pretty much identical to a Melee Soldier and that the only area that you can see a Solarion falling behind in, is when they use Graviton mode? So would that not mean the ONLY part that Solarions need buffs for is the Graviton mode, to make it more inline and useful for melee combat (Hint, it's not supposed to be a melee style, compare it to Technomancers and Mystics) Not quite.
The Photon/Melee Solarian is very much like a Melee Soldier. Similar damage, similar effects, similar outcomes. The Solarian ends up lagging in Saves, Stamina, and Resolve comparatively though.
The Graviton/Ranged Solarian is a completely different animal. It actually is largely different from say, a ranged Soldier, and has a much different combat role.
The thing is that they are not really compatible with one another. Namely they have different focuses and executions. I don't think that it is a problem per se. The problem is that people act like, and assume, that a Solarian can use both at the same time. They really can't, not effectively.
So when someone goes, "Well the Melee Solarian should be lesser (in survivability) than the Soldier! They have other things they can do!"
They... Don't. Because they have to be specced for it for it to be effective. And you can't spec for everything. So, yes, you have potential utility that a Soldier doesn't have... If you are built for it... If you are built for it, however, then you can't melee with any degree of effectiveness. It is a catch 22.
Paizo is aware of this. The Graviton/Solar Armor Solarians in the book, for example, are all ranged combatants.
Quote: And why only Soldier, why ignore the other 2 melees? Melee Operative, with all the weird wordings and rules, such as it's more optimal for an operative to go prone and trick shot from the ground while slithering around like a snake. And a Melee Combat Drone for Mechanics? I can address this to a point:
1. An Operative is not a primary combatant and is not intended to be a primary combatant. They get a large number of skills and primarily get boosts to skills. It is the single most powerful SAD class in the game as well, with the ability to use dex for its melee and ranged attacks, as well as it being their resolve stat, as well as having trick attack to increase single attack damage.
2. Mechanic Drones aren't really intended for melee. So when someone does that they are intentionally trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It is understandable when you see problems with it. This isn't the case with the Solarian which is intended to be a primary melee combatant. Which is why they get to pick a melee weapon, or armor, and they only get smell arms and advanced melee weapons by default.
The reason (most of us) compare the Solarian to the Soldier is because:
1. Both are 7+Con Stamina classes.
2. Both are 4+Int Skill classes.
3. Both have the exact same Save Bases.
4. The Photon Melee build, and core abilities, literally mirrors the Blitz Soldier with only slight variation. The Soldier has a gear boost that adds +1/2 Str (Typically +4 by level 20) the Solarian gets Photon Attunement which adds +4 by level 20. Both can charge as a standard action. Etc etc.
Quote: If it's just a battle as you say between Soldiers and Solarions, then with both of them being the 2 best at melee, then you can't justify either getting buffed if everyone is lagging behind. You can justify a slight buff to the Solarian's survivability because the Solarian lags behind the comparable classes if the Solarian tries to use all of its class abilities to their fullest and also tries to maximize resolve. This is compared to what every other class can do.
The argument is that the Solarian doesn't actually have a purpose. Meaning that, unlike every other class, the Solarian has a pseudo-build where you aren't intended to actually use all of your class abilities as some are intended for specific paths.
This argument may have some merit. If so, if the intention was to have class abilities that could only be used in certain kinds of builds but are given at the base level, then Paizo could fix this simply by popping into this thread and saying, "Yeah, we didn't intend for melee Solarians to get the most out of Sidreal Influence, and Skilled, instead we wanted that to be an option for a ranged more operative-like ranged build."
The reason this sticks out at current is that this is the only class in the game that has that situation. Thus it is hard to gauge design intention.
Or, more specifically, we can only compare classes to each other. When one class seems to operate on a completely different core philosophy it requires some attention.
I am not discounting the possibility that this was the intention. I have seen a marked uptick in Melee Solarian performance if I ignore certain class abilities completely. This has caused, over hours and hours of theorcrafting and tests, (Hey, I can't do much else anymore) a number of distinct builds to emerge.
Quote: This is why this discussion is pointless, compare how Solarion does against all classes, do a melee build for all, a ranged build for all and finally a powers build for all and see where each class compares. because I highly doubt solarion will fall that far behind every other class if you do this. They only fall behind in saves. This is wide and far across the board. They tend to be around 4 behind every other class that has 2 good saves and 1 bad save. Which is why the only adjustment I have recommended was for Paizo to consider adding a revelation that helps to bolster saves.
Quote: And that excuse of, well if there is an Envoy or Operative then a Solarion skills are useless, is incredibly lazy and that implies that if someone in your party, ultimately on your side, that if they can do a skill better than you then a solarion is worthless. Which is the biggest load of crap ever, just because an Envoy could make a better Captain does not mean they will invest the skill points into it or even want to be that role. They could just as well want to be the Science Officer, Mechanic, Gunner or Pilot. Because you make a baseless assumption on a fictional party and then put them in a position deliberately to make the Solarion look worse is not indicative of a problem more than a poorly built character sucking. Wrong.
It isn't that if there is an Envoy or Operative that Solarian skills are useless. It is that Paizo highly tuned the game so that anything less than a specific skill investment fails to be able to accomplish CR tasks.
The reason why an Envoy tends to make a better Captain is:
1. Charisma is their primary stat and they aren't, by default, intended to be a strength based melee combatant on top of it.
2. They only need 2 skills as "mandatory" to cap their offense, defense, and their special abilities. (Dex and Charisma) which allows them 2 other stats they can freely raise (Con and Wisdom) which bolster saves. They also get a large number of skill points allowing them to invest in the three skills that are used by the Captain. Diplomacy, Intimidation, and Bluff. A Solarian only gets 4 skills by default per level, and raising Int is difficult because they already have 3 default skills they need to focus on. Strength, Dexterity, and Charisma. No other class has to do this to perform their primary role.
Envoy: Charisma and Dexterity
Operative: Dexterity
Mystic: Wisdom and Dexterity
Soldier: Strength/Dex for Melee, Dex for Ranged
Mechanic: Intelligence and Dexterity
Technomancer: Intelligence and Dexterity
All of those classes can raise their intended defense, offense, and resolve stats while also simultaneously raising their save stats. All but the melee Solarian. That is why there is an issue. One class clearly operates differently than any other class.
That is, at this point, not something that can be denied. It is a cold hard fact. The Solarian is INTENDED to raise 2 stats that don't effect Saves (Strength and Charisma) leaving it only 2 stats to purchase saves with, of which there are 3 save stats (Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution).
Quote: To those who haven't caught on yet, Solarions are more inline with Pathfinder Monks than any other class, the issue they face is lack of expanded material and considering Paizo has stated that certain DC's will be adjusted and that with only 1 monster manual to go by Saves are not that great of a measure to use when you look at high level creatures as there is not a great many of them to choose from as examples. Unfortunately all we have to go on is what Paizo has released thus far. So far, as far as we know the Solarian operates differently than any other class. I'm not going to just assume everything will be okay. That would be foolish. Paizo are humans, and we have seen them make mistakes in the past, until changes to skills are actually implemented I have to look at performance based on the materials we have.
All of the data right now points to a minor disparity in the saves department due to the intended path of abilities scores Paizo gave the class.
Interestingly if Charisma wasn't the primary stat, if it was literally any other stat but Intelligence this issue wouldn't exist at all.
Ravingdork wrote: HWalsh wrote: If you're in the right mode for it. Don't most of your powers operate independently of mode?
They just get a little better if you happen to be in the right mode.
I could be in graviton mode, and use a photon revelation without hindrance. Nothing in the rules indicates that I can't do this. You took part of that statement out of context, or more or less cut off part of it.
I will provide the full quote:
4. Use a revelation!
In round 3. If you're in the right mode for it. Things like Wormhole are usually not even needed.
I was making a full qualifier. Meaning that there are all kinds of caveats that those statements don't take into account. Zenith revelations, for example, require specific modes. So you can't, say, use wormhole if you are fully attuned to Photon.
Some revelations (Supernova and Black Hole) as well as all Zenith Revelations (such as Wormhole and Solar Acceleration) require specific types of attunement to be use at all.
Some other revelations don't work all that well unless you are attuned properly. Such as Dark Matter which only lasts for 1 round unless you are Graviton attuned, meaning you are having to spend your move action every round to gain a small benefit.
Flare can be used single target while in Graviton, or can be an AoE in Photon.
Gravity Anchor has to be activated with a move action if you are in Photon or a Reaction if you are in Graviton, meaning to use it in Photon you have to be able to predict in advance what enemies will do.
You can't use Gravity Hold, for example, to grab a target and immobilize them unless you are in Graviton.
Plasma Sheath only grants bonus damage while in Photon Mode.
Etc etc.
You can't stun a target with Crush unless you are in Graviton.
So what mode you are in absolutely helps to define what you can do and a lot of the "Solarian Revelations are better than Soldier stuff!" Crowd have shown, in this thread, that they aren't familiar with the intricacies of those qualifiers.
People commonly, for example, misunderstand the limitations on powers like Gravity Hold or Hypnotic Glow.
Edit:
Giving you a specific example:
If you are in Photon Mode, then you cannot use Gravity Hold to immobilize an enemy target.
If you are in Graviton Mode, then you gain no bonus damage from using Plasma Sheath.
So while you can technically use non-Zenith Revelations while not in the proper mode, you can't always use them to benefit you in a specific situation. A Photon attuned Solarian could float an object to their hand with Gravity Hold, but not target an enemy.
A Photon Attuned Solarian has to spend a move action every round to use Gravity Shield, but cannot manifest the portable cover aspect of Gravity Shield.
HWalsh wrote: So, yes, you have potential utility that a Soldier doesn't have... If you are built for it... If you are built for it, however, then you can't melee with any degree of effectiveness. It is a catch 22. Yes but the fact that a Solarion has abilities it can use while attuned to the other focus is something that cannot be discounted and something that was obviously designed into how a Solarion is in terms of power, otherwise the requirement that you cannot have more than 1 Power above the other, would not be a necessity. And even a situational power is not something to be ignored, considering 90% of all Pathfinder spells and feats are situational, yet we still consider them when it comes to how powerful certain classes are.
HWalsh wrote:
Paizo is aware of this. The Graviton/Solar Armor Solarians in the book, for example, are all ranged combatants.
Yes which is why you making a claim that a revelation for gaining saves, makes no point. Graviton provides an Improvement to the Bad save, adding that as an option for Solarions, makes very little sense as that might solve the problem for Proton but instead make Graviton completely outstrip other classes, which it shouldn't if it is supposed to be bad at something, by design.
HWalsh wrote:
1. An Operative is not a primary combatant and is not intended to be a primary combatant. They get a large number of skills and primarily get boosts to skills. It is the single most powerful SAD class in the game as well, with the ability to use dex for its melee and ranged attacks, as well as it being their resolve stat, as well as having trick attack to increase single attack damage.
I disagree, all classes are to some degree a combatant, and considering that Operatives can only trick shot with Small Arms and Operative weapons, which they receive half level on instead of full level through spec, which is the trade off for the trick shot, if they cannot consistently land, they out put very little damage, because of their weapon restrictions. In terms of damage I would be hard pressed to see a ranged or melee Operative outstrip any class doing the same, it might at some stages of the game do more damage, but it really is limited on how it can fight. The notion that there are Primary Combat Classes, is interesting. What are the Primary Classes then, because from where I sit, there would be only 1 and that would be a Soldier. As they do not have class abilities that are functional outside of combat.
HWalsh wrote:
1. Charisma is their primary stat and they aren't, by default, intended to be a strength based melee combatant on top of it.
Then the solution which you propose does absolutely nothing to assess the inherent problem Solarions face and instead would only push the problem down further to where when they do add a solution it either completely makes the Solraion the most broken class or utterly useless beyond a dip.
The true problem is that Solarions do not receive their bonuses from the Key Ability Score. Which would be solved by Making the Armor or Weapon gain the bonus from the Charisma Modifier instead of Weapon getting Strength and Armor getting nothing.
Doing that meant if someone wanted to do MAXIMUM DAMAGE, then they would forgo many defensive capabilities and instead Max out both Strength and Charisma, which should push the Solarion at least another 15-20 DPR on Full Attacks, at the expense of having terrible time on defenses, which would make sense, and the draw back of bad saves becomes apparent if the person wanted to just see big numbers.
Look at your build but change one thing, Solarions instead receive their Charisma Modifier to Solar Weapon instead of Strength, then build from that, I am pretty sure doing that would solve all your problems.
Because you want a band-aid, I want to see if we even need surgery. And it seems that making a class base it's abilities off of its Key stat seems to be the only proper solution. Freeing up stat points from being spread, boosting DC's so your situational powers start passing the 50% mark, and making Armor not have the worst scaling since I saw a fat kid try to climb a rock wall for a doughnut.
Wow literally disagree with everything in that post^
Vidmaster7 wrote: Wow literally disagree with everything in that post^ I do as well.
Though it would have been interesting if Charisma controlled Solar Weapon instead of Strength.
That would mean a Solar Weapon Solarian would only need Charisma and Dex, leaving them able to boost Charisma, Dex, Con, and Wis at every level.
Hmm well what if their was a finesse option where you could use dex to hit how much realistically would you suffer damage wise without str to damage? IT would be of course the worst at low levels.
Vidmaster7 wrote: Hmm well what if their was a finesse option where you could use dex to hit how much realistically would you suffer damage wise without str to damage? IT would be of course the worst at low levels. Think I read somewhere that Paizo does not want DEX to damage in Starfinder.
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