Telekinetic charge through darkness for sneak attack

[Collider1]

Would using telekinetic charge on a rogue to push them through an area of darkness allow them to make a stealth check so that their attack on landing is a sneak attack?

[quibblemuch]

Can the rogue see in darkness? And can the creature not see in darkness? If so, there is no need for a Stealth check, since the creature can't see the rogue. If not, either the rogue can't sneak attack because the creature has concealment, or the rogue can't hide because the creature can see in darkness.

"The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment." Source.

[Collider1]

So is being in complete darkness an automatic stealth success against opponents without darkvision then? If that is the case what is the total concealment 50% miss chance for as they're already in stealth?

[quibblemuch]

No. You can still know someone is there and yet lose your Dexterity bonus against them. The sneak attack in this case is not coming from Stealth, it is coming from not being able to see the rogue. Those are two different, if related, conditions.

From blinded: "The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)".

So a creature who can't see loses its Dexterity bonus to AC.

From sneak attack: "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC".

So a rogue who is attacking a creature who cannot see (barring exceptions with extraordinary senses) deals the extra damage.

That said, being in total darkness does not necessarily auto-succeed on stealth checks without darkvision. There are other senses (e.g., blindsight) that might obviate the need for vision.

The rogue might still want to make a Stealth check in darkness. Even if unseen, the creature would know the rogue is in a given square once the rogue attacked (or even landed, depending on the creature), unless the rogue attempted a Stealth check. However, once the rogue attacks, they cannot then make a Stealth check to hide, as it is not their turn. The monster knows where they are, even if they are denied their Dexterity and have to take the miss chance to hit them.

I don't understand what your second question means.

[Claxon]

If the question is, can you move the rogue through an area of darkness (and attempt to get them a stealth check while doing so) and move them into a position to attack, and then attack per the spell?

As a GM I would rule no.

[quibblemuch]

Claxon - I understood that part of the question. The question that confused me was: "what is the total concealment 50% miss chance for as they're already in stealth?"

And which part are you ruling no to?

EDIT - I think the part you're ruling no to is the Stealth check part. And I'm in agreement with you there. It's not the rogue's turn and you don't get to hide just because you are telekinetically passed THROUGH some concealment not on your turn. See below.

[Collider1]

From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Concealment
You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance.

I had previously assumed that when you move into darkness, an opponent (who doesn't have darkvision or blindsight or any other ability to help them detect things in darkness) still knows what square you are in and can make attacks against you at 50% hit chance, but if you make a successful stealth check in the darkness they don't know which square you occupy and so can't attack you.

So is the 50% hit rate from concealment only applicable against opponents with blindfight or are there other situations in which your opponent can know the square you occupy and make attacks at 50% hit chance.

Also back to my original question, if the rogue's target is lit, but the rogue passes through a dark area en route to it, would they get the sneak attack automatically, or get a stealth check for it, or not at all? (assuming the rogue has darkvision but the target has no darkvision/blindsight/e.t.c)

[quibblemuch]

Oh. You didn't say the rogue's target was lit and the rogue was just passing through an area of darkness to an area of light.

No.

The same way you couldn't use this spell to move the rogue along a path that went behind a pile of boxes, have the rogue make a Stealth check to hide behind a pile of boxes, then continue the path past the boxes, ending in plain sight where you would get sneak attack damage against the creature.

[Collider1]

Ah ok. If the rogue began in darkness (and potentially the target is completely unaware of him) but the target was lit, would that count as a sneak attack?

[quibblemuch]

Yep.

Unless, as mentioned, the target had one of those sensory abilities that negates darkness.

[Collider1]

Ok cool. Thank you. :)

[Claxon]

quibblemuch wrote:

Claxon - I understood that part of the question. The question that confused me was: "what is the total concealment 50% miss chance for as they're already in stealth?"

And which part are you ruling no to?

EDIT - I think the part you're ruling no to is the Stealth check part. And I'm in agreement with you there. It's not the rogue's turn and you don't get to hide just because you are telekinetically passed THROUGH some concealment not on your turn. See below.

Basically I was ruling no that the rogue didn't get to make a stealth check in this situation (being moved by telekinetic charge).

My understanding (which turned out to be correct) was that the rogue was starting from normal light, being moved through darkness, and ending in normal light.

[BigNorseWolf]

Stealthing is normally part of a move action. I don't think the rogue gets to take one unless he's readying a move action to curl into a ball or something for when you throw him. Since he didn't start his turn stealthed, he'd automatically unstealth as soon as he left the darkness.

[Collider1]

Ooh, readying an action is an interesting idea. If it normally wouldn't be allowed because you can only stealth when you make a move action, that could be a solution, but it might be that you can only use stealth in your own turn.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Collider1 wrote:

So is being in complete darkness an automatic stealth success against opponents without darkvision then?

Recall that in pathfinder, stealth has no bearing on Sneak Attack. It's the ability to catch the opponent flat footed which allows Sneak Attack. Blind characters (like those in total darkness without darkvision) are flatfooted against attacks directed their way. Stealth can allow you to catch them flatfooted, but stealth has no direct effect on sneak attack.