Building a ranger-esque Paladin for an all dwarf party in the Ironfang Invasion adventure path. Would like some advice on how to tackle this. Race & class selection is set in stone (no point in suggesting to change it, let's work with what I have)
Race: Dwarf
Slow and Steady
Darkvision
Defensive Training
Hatred
Alt racial traits:
Conservative Diplomacy (replaces stone cunning). Min/max die roll for diplomacy is 5/15.
Craftsman (replaces greed): +2 craft/profession with stone/metal
Mountaineer (replaces stability) immune to altitude sickness/keep Dex AC climb or acrobatics
Shadow hunter (replaces weapon familiarity) can hit incorporeal with nonmagic weapons, +2 vs neg level and heals ability damage faster.
Unstoppable (replaces hardy) +1 fort saves, free toughness feat
Ability Scores (starting, 20pts):
STR 13, Dex 16, Con 14 (12+2), Int 10, Wis (8+2), CHA 13 (15-2)
Level up points go into CHA, Dex, Dex, Dex, Dex.
Plan of being somewhat capable in Melee, not dumping STR.
Class: Paladin
Archetypes:
Chosen One (I want the familiar, and the lay on paws ability)
Holy Guide (For Favored Terrain/Teamwork feat)
(No, I do not want Divine Hunter)
Traits: (these are not set in stone)
Adopted (Weapon Training): +1 damage for a small list of weapons (longbow included)
Deadeye Bowman: Negates the +4 AC for soft cover
Chernasrando Hopeful: Campaign trait reduces effective concealment in forest/plains.
Loner (drawback)
Feats: (in no particular order, except fey foundling)
Fey foundling (+2 hp per die of healing received)
Point blank shot (+1 to hit/damage within 30ft, ranged)
Rapid shot (-2 all attacks, get bonus shot)
Precise shot (ignore penalty for firing into Melee)
Word of healing (ranged lay on hands, but 1/2 effectiveness, required for Sunblade)
Sunblade (fire blast as kinteticist of character level -4, uses charisma for calculations, uses a lay on hands to fuel ability)
Planning on using a greatsword and longbow. Up for suggestions on this and whatever else you can think would be useful. Like what mercies, teamwork feat, etc. favored terrain is most likely going to be forest. I'll make use of shield other to protect the cleric, as I'll have the extra HP to burn.
Oh, other party members are: (dwarves of course)
Barbarian (unchained)
Cleric of Erastil, plans on being mounted (animal domain and an inquisition)
Arcanist (plans on VMC Rogue, possibly into arcane trickster but maybe not prestige)
Word of Healing and Sunblade look fun, but they're coming in right about when an archer would normally enjoy Manyshot and Clustered Shots.
As far as mercies go Restorative and Ensorcelled look like the most versatile considering you don't get any until level 9. For a teamwork feat you might consider Escape Route to help the party move around, or Broken Wing Gambit to get extra attacks in.
Good suggestions all around. Thank you.
I will definitely consider the minor drop in Wisdom to boost strength. I will be resorting to melee combat a little bit more than expected, seeing as how the feat progression works out. I will probably prefer ranged combat until any targets are engaged in melee with a party member, then charging in to deliver a hit with my greatsword.
Not sure I want to use the dwarven longhammer. As the character plans to be adopted by a (mostly) human community, I think forgoing the dwarven weapon familiarity will be appropriate. The reach would be useful.
If I focus on getting Word of healing (at level 3) and Sunblade (at level 5), I get an energy blast (fire) that does 1d6+2 damage. Helpful with trolls, but I'll probably delay getting Sunblade until level 9 or 11, so that it actually packs a punch when it makes an appearance (and I can afford a diadem to increase the damage)
So feat progression looks like:
1) Fey Foundling
3) Point-Blank Shot
5) Rapid Shot
7) Precise Shot
9) Word of Healing
11) Sunblade
13) Clustered Shots
15) Manyshot
17) Extra Lay on Hands (????)
19) Extra Lay on Hands (????)
Alternatively, knowing how my group will function, I will use the benefits of Craft Magic Arms & Armor our Arcanist is sure to pick up (or cleric) and encourage people to share their feats with me. It may be expensive, but why take a feat when you can 'buy' one of them. Multiple uses of the 'Training' (+1) weapon property will allow me to get
1) 'Power Attack' and 'Vital Strike', or whatever feats the Barbarian is willing to take and share with me. Great for my greatsword.
2) 'Deadly Aim', 'Clustered Shot' and 'Manyshot' can be gained a similar way, through bribing NPCs that are loyal to the party (and I know at least one archer dedicated NPC we have early access to). Great for my (eventual) composite longbow.
If I can work that out, I'll have to come up with creative feats to take after 11th level. ... Anyone know of a feat to increase the effective level of an kinteticist's energy blast (up to actual character level)?
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Race & class selection is set in stone (no point in suggesting to change it, let's work with what I have)Actually we/you can, because the build is currently not kosher: Chosen One and Holy Guide can't technically stack because both modify class skills. Therefore, with the deepest of regrets, you must submit a rebuild (improved, see below) to your GM....
OK so far... (I don't like giving up Stonecunning's free Perception checks to notice traps in dungeons, but if the concept dumps WIS and doesn't get the skill as class, it's an easy trade away.)Race: Dwarf
Slow and Steady
Darkvision
Defensive Training
Hatred
Alt racial traits:
Conservative Diplomacy (replaces stone cunning). Min/max die roll for diplomacy is 5/15.
Craftsman (replaces greed): +2 craft/profession with stone/metal
Mountaineer (replaces stability) immune to altitude sickness/keep Dex AC climb or acrobatics
Shadow hunter (replaces weapon familiarity) can hit incorporeal with nonmagic weapons, +2 vs neg level and heals ability damage faster.Dude? Do not give up Dwarven Longhammer. It's tied with greatsword for most destructive martial weapon in the game, and works full-strength on all those jerks that thwart slashing weapons (i.e. constructs, aberrations, etc). (Besides, how many incorporeals are you going to run into before you have a magic weapon? Tuck a 25gb scroll of Magic Weapon into your backpack and avoid this suboptimal choice.
Unstoppable (replaces hardy) +1 fort saves, free toughness featNo. No. No. This is why you don't forfeit Hardy.
Well, your archery isn't particularly good either with a measly +1 damage to your arrows. You have STR at 13 despite not having Power Attack on your feat list. (I suspect that you originally intended to, but were side-tracked.) WIS, as others have noted, is a paladin's dump stat.Ability Scores (starting, 20pts):
STR 13, Dex 16, Con 14 (12+2), Int 10, Wis (8+2), CHA 13 (15-2)
Level up points go into CHA, Dex, Dex, Dex, Dex.
Plan of being somewhat capable in Melee, not dumping STR.
Class: Paladin
-- I am compelled to ask: Why are you playing a paladin?
While dwarves aren't typically horrible at anything excepting running the 100m, them being racially penalized in a paladin's prime stat while receiving a bonus to the class' most-applicable dump stat is the antithesis of synergy. This leads to a MAD build as you desperately attempt to pound your 20pts allotment into something workable. Emphasizing DEX for archery just makes things even worse
Your LoH is already hobbled due to being a CHA-penalized race (-2 uses per day versus CHA-raising race), and along comes this furball to roast 'em at double the rate? -- Just buy a pet and train it to do some tricks.Archetypes:
Chosen One (I want the familiar, and the lay on paws ability)
Holy Guide (For Favored Terrain/Teamwork feat)
(No, I do not want Divine Hunter)
Good, because Divine Hunter forfeits Aura of Justice, which is the single best party-wide buff in the entire game. But Holy Guide also sucks, because it forfeits your first two Mercies (meaning no Greater Mercy can taken until way late to amply and supercharge the Fey Foundling that you took at first level).
Q. How do you know when a CRB class is almost too powerful? A. When all of the game designer's published archetypes of the class to date are arguably weaker in comparison, many of them seemingly deliberately so.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
To fix a lot of these problems, I'm recommending a pinch of multiclassing:
dwarf, 15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array
STR:14
DEX:14
CON+16
INT:12
WIS+09 (note human is WIS:07/CHA:17 with same layout)
CHA+13 (all bumps)
...versus the OP array, this is melee att+1/dmg+1, ranged -1, AC+1, skills +1/level, and saves +2/+1/+1 (factoring +0/-1/-1 then all +2 with kept Hardy racial trait). With only one odd stat in CHA, we raise that exclusively in our paladin. Hitpoints are the same without sacrificing Hardy for Toughness.
Skills: Ride (maxed), Perception (do not waste a single point in this as a paladin), Handle Animal (enough to DC10 on a 1), Diplomacy (high, unless someone else is "face"), Swim+Climb (at least one point), rest smorgasbord.
traits: Dangerously Curious, Magical Knack(paladin)
00 saves FT RF WI (includes dwarf bonus vs spells)
01 fight1 07 04 01 [Dragoon(Mounted Combat,Skill Focus:Ride)], Fey Foundling
Here's how this is going to work: you're a dwarf, and you're going to start riding a 45gp medium-sized combat-trained pony because it totally says they're suitable for dwarves right there. (This is one of those just do-it and see if the GM objects situations. You're not playing PFS where arcane interpretations of RAW preclude it.)
Benefits: doubled move, doubled damage (lance charge), and improved action economy (the mount moves while you convert move actions into item-retrieval or mount/dismounts). Advice: don't do any lance-charges at 1st level; no need to cause your GM to regret his decisions. Just smack things with the longhammer.
02 cava1 09 04 01 [challenge:1/day][mount][no armor check mounted], Ride-by Attack
Assuming you've been riding the war-pony for several adventures, a GM in-a-good-mood might let you keep the slightly better-stated animal for your cavalier mount (and this gets you the bugger much earlier than a straight-classed paladin).
Buy a military saddle and glue it to your ass.
03 pala1 11 04 03 [CRB/no archetype][smite:1/day], Boon Companion, CHA>14
This catches the mount up druid level-wise. Good time to remember that being mounted grants a +1 elevation bonus versus afoot opponents.
You have one Smite/day as well as one Challenge/day.
04 pala2 14 06 06 [Divine Grace][Lay on Hands], CHA>14
05 pala3 14 07 06 [Aura of courage][divine health][mercy], Greater Mercy
06 pala4 15 07 07 [channel][smite2/day][spells]
Your LoH spools up rapidly, with an initial 1d6+2 at 4th becoming 2d6+4 at 5th, then 3d6+6 at 6th.
07 pala5 17 09 09 [divine bond:mount], Steel Soul
paladin and cavalier mount class ability stacks, so the mount stays "caught up". Enemy AoE and other spells more prevalent, so Steel Soul appropriate here. Otherwise shift down one of the two other feats from 9th of 11th. Note that fighter2 can be taken to get a feat quicker, but I wouldn't recommend it because continuing in paladin is powerful.
08 pala6 17 10 10 [mercy]
09 pala7 17 10 10 [smite3/day], Power Attack
10 pala8 18 10 11 [aura of resolve]
11 pala9 18 11 11 [mercy], Indomitable Mount
At this level or earlier, you're probably desirous of Deadly Aim to stack with Smite-archery. IMO there's just not room for it (let alone any of the rest of archery's feat-suckomatic-blackholing). So, what to do? Well, I would like to assume that by now someone in the party is casting Fly routinely (else we've dropped a boat-ton of cash on a winged gismo for the mount). So, charge them suckers through the air. (Feat at 13th is Spirited Charge.)
-- Don't shoot arrows; be the arrows.
Technically Sir Thugsalot is correct in that those archetypes don't stack. I think most GMs would allow it though, I certainly would.
Personally, I think the flavor of those archetypes is definitely worth the cost, and I don't think the cost is that much.
I would never multiclass this character. There is too much good stuff in Paladin to delay it all for a level, for a relatively minor and short lived benefits.
I also think the character you have a quite viable. I would probably focus on STR over DEX though, you need enough of course, but starting with a 16 STR and 14 DEX would be what I would be looking at (and I'd be perfectly fine with a 12 CON since staying at range is a great defense.) Dumping WIS is possible, but since your CHR is going to be that great (and I don't think I'd be dumping many att bonuses into it) you want to be careful about your will save, divine grace and it being a good save helps, but generally speaking their is no one better than the archer to mind control.
I would favor STR over DEX becuase you probably won't have a horrible time hitting anyway, and having pretty good damage even without smite will be quite useful.
For your party, I would consider talking with the cleric about taking the evangelist archetype, they wouldn't get an inquisition, but if you and the barbarian (and possible an arcane tricker) are getting inspire courage bonuses that is quite a force multiplier. He could still take the feather subdomain for an AC.
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I would never multiclass this character. There is too much good stuff in Paladin to delay it all for a level, for a relatively minor and short lived benefits
If you're going to ride, it's well worth it. Otherwise, don't.
Packing cavalier[gendarme] and fighter[dragoon] grabs two Mounted feats plus SF:Ride right away, gives you a bonded mount right away, and lets you flip your middle finger to armor-check penalties (which will be pretty significant if you're in plate) such as those to Ride (which means your skill there is basically about +8ish ahead of a paladin, meaning your mount doesn't croak when you try to negate hits to it and don't fail.
Once a paladin has Divine Grace, most of the personal business is taken care of (CHA to saving throws, attacks and damage w/Smite, etc), and the rest is incremental gains. The class gets so little in the way of spellcasting that it gains a lot more from Dangerously Curious/Use Magic Device than is loses.
And snarfing a Challenge that works on anything? ...gravy.
May I ask why you're focusing on self-healing/LoH when you're planning on being AT RANGE?
meaning you're not going be in melee, being hit?
I plan to act as a HP buffer for the melee units. Shield other being a spell I plan on using often (using Watchful Eye until I get second level spells, same as shield other but shorter duration). Also, SOMEONE has to stick around the Arcanist and make sure that mobs don't swarm them, given the chance.
Paladins can make some deal great ranged dps, just not till level 9ish.
Don't grab a Strength composite bow, get yourself the Adaptive enchantment on your bow as soon as possible instead.
I am hoping to capitalize on that fact. I know early levels it won't be that great but I'll get there. I might look into the adaptive property, but with all the other +1 weapon bonuses I want to add, it won't be at the top of the list.
Technically Sir Thugsalot is correct in that those archetypes don't stack. I think most GMs would allow it though, I certainly would.
I did miss that little bit. One removes a skill, the other adds two. Neither are the same one and the DM is likely to approve of it.
Personally, I think the flavor of those archetypes is definitely worth the cost, and I don't think the cost is that much.
I am in agreement. The additional of a familiar is worth the offset of the abilities, and being able to have the familiar deliver a lay on hands, or channel energy, if amazing, even if I might never actually use it.
I also think the character you have a quite viable. I would probably focus on STR over DEX though, you need enough of course, but starting with a 16 STR and 14 DEX would be what I would be looking at (and I'd be perfectly fine with a 12 CON since staying at range is a great defense.) Dumping WIS is possible, but since your CHR is going to be that great (and I don't think I'd be dumping many att bonuses into it) you want to be careful about your will save, divine grace and it being a good save helps, but generally speaking their is no one better than the archer to mind control.
Yes, I am looking for viable, adequate, decent. Not the best or incredible. The paladin class is already quite good and I do not need to, or want to, outshine anyone else. I will take the will save issue under advisement. I do plan on getting CHA boosting items, along with Str, Dex, and Con. Wisdom and Intelligence can languish for all I care.
For your party, I would consider talking with the cleric about taking the evangelist archetype, they wouldn't get an inquisition, but if you and the barbarian (and possible an arcane tricker) are getting inspire courage bonuses that is quite a force multiplier. He could still take the feather subdomain for an AC.
Hmm, not sure if he'll go for it. It is a big deviation from what he has in mind. He is going for mounted combat and is probably going to be wearing medium/heavy armor, using his inquisition to pick up the mount class feature (think Cleric/cavalier).
Actually we/you can, because the build is currently not kosher: Chosen One and Holy Guide can't technically stack because both modify class skills. Therefore, with the deepest of regrets, you must submit a rebuild (improved, see below) to your GM....
That isn't helpful. While the archetypes do not stack (as I now realize), the class is not up for rebuild. I will play a Paladin and it WILL be a Chosen One archetype. Offering a rebuild without keeping my wishes in mind is not constructive, though I appreciate anything else you have to offer.
Steel Soul IS a very nice feat. I am already feat strapped at the moment, so the likelihood of me taking that feat is very slim. The extra HP from toughness and +1 Fort save is effectively a higher CON score. I will keep it in mind, however.
I will eventually get access to Power Attack through a weapon enhancement. I will not be using a feat on it. I still need to meet the requirements and I do want to be viable in melee combat. A 14 Str would achieve that. Thank you.
Why am I playing a Paladin? I want to. Why am I playing a Dwarf Paladin? I want to. Our entire party is going to be dwarven. I want to make the class/race combination work together. It will. Maybe not as effectively, or optimally as other combinations, but I am not seeking to be the very best, just the best I (the character) can be given what he has to work with.
I would never multiclass this character. There is too much good stuff in Paladin to delay it all for a level, for a relatively minor and short lived benefitsIf you're going to ride, it's well worth it. Otherwise, don't.
Packing cavalier[gendarme] and fighter[dragoon] grabs two Mounted feats plus SF:Ride right away, gives you a bonded mount right away, and lets you flip your middle finger to armor-check penalties (which will be pretty significant if you're in plate) such as those to Ride (which means your skill there is basically about +8ish ahead of a paladin, meaning your mount doesn't croak when you try to negate hits to it and don't fail.
Once a paladin has Divine Grace, most of the personal business is taken care of (CHA to saving throws, attacks and damage w/Smite, etc), and the rest is incremental gains. The class gets so little in the way of spellcasting that it gains a lot more from Dangerously Curious/Use Magic Device than is loses.
And snarfing a Challenge that works on anything? ...gravy.
Perhaps I could see this for a lance build (although even then I have my doubts), but a ranged build? I don't think I have ever seen the bad guys focus on a ranged persons mount, since dismounting an archer has only a marginal effect on his ability to damage (of course the character we are talking about isn't planning on a mount at all....)
Paladin spell casting isn't wizard casting, but it certainly isn't nothing either. They get access to a couple of very powerful spells. That isn't the biggest reason not to multiclass a paladin though, you are losing a point of damage on smite (this is based on paladin level, CHR is only the bonus to hit) for the entire game, you are behind in getting more smites, behind in getting mercies, behind in divine bond (or in the case of a chosen one getting to improved familiar). Paladin grows every level, and to trade that off for a bonus to ride skill and a once a day challenge for one opponent that costs a swift action doesn't seem anything like a good deal to me.
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The additional of a familiar is worth the offset of the abilities, and being able to have the familiar deliver a lay on hands, or channel energy, if amazing, even if I might never actually use it.
Which makes your little meatsnack scampering around the battlefield a legit target, and you have none of a wizard's tricks to keep it routinely safe (i.e. Invisibility to start with), and 7th level is a long time to wait for Shield Other to pop up on a paladin's spell list.
You might want to get your CON to 16 if you're going to do this, because a familiar's HP is based on yours. It gets the best mileage out of your dwarf's racial bonuses.
Which makes your little meatsnack scampering around the battlefield a legit target, and you have none of a wizard's tricks to keep it routinely safe (i.e. Invisibility to start with), and 7th level is a long time to wait for Shield Other to pop up on a paladin's spell list.
This does present a problem, but it is nothing that can't be solved with a little teamwork. Between the cleric and the Arcanist, I'm sure we can spare an invisibility (or similar) spell. I am leaning towards a flying familiar, maybe an snow owl, something that is small and easily concealed. Come level 7, it becomes an improved familiar (probably Silvanshee).
I can easily take care of everyone starting at level 4, with Watchful Eye, a nifty first level spell from Dwarves of Golarion. It's shield other, but shorter duration. Until then, I may have my familiar be more pro-active with the lay on paws.
You might want to get your CON to 16 if you're going to do this, because a familiar's HP is based on yours. It gets the best mileage out of your dwarf's racial bonuses.
That's what Unstoppable was for. Starting with 16 HP is nothing to sneeze at (10, +2 Con, +1 Favored Class, +3 Toughness). Our table also grants max HP up to level 3, after that it's average HP or you can roll but have to take the result.
For a familiar a thrush looks nice to me, lets it speak to you, making the idea that it acts as a spiritual advisor a bit more logical.
Out of curiosity, if you are doing a dwarven paladin, why not a stonelord?
Going to semi-derail this thread -
SUGGESTION -
scrap the Paladin idea and go with a Archer Warpriest!
While I know you said Race and class is set in stone. The Dwarf Warpriest can still have the same theme of paladins but the Dwarf, as a race, stats just fit the Warpriest a lot better then a paladin.Warpriests also get the more feats for the feat heavy archery builds.
With Divine Favor/Power, Warpriests damage lags behind a paladin smite ability but it works on EVERYTHING.
As a Warpriest, you still have about the same healing as a paladin but you're using a different game mechanic.
De-rail attempt was ineffective. As I stated before, changing the class is not an option. The theme itself (holy warrior that uses archery) isn't important enough to tempt me from what I already decide on. Just because a Warpriest would work better mechanically doesn't mean I want to change the whole character concept to fit around the new mechanics. The draw of the Chosen One's class abilities is just too strong.
For a familiar a thrush looks nice to me, lets it speak to you, making the idea that it acts as a spiritual advisor a bit more logical.
Out of curiosity, if you are doing a dwarven paladin, why not a stonelord?
Thrush seems like a good idea and comes with a boost to diplomacy.
Stonelord? I feel that archetype is complete rubbish. I mean, trade away smite evil for a once per day swift action that lasts one turn? Also, it gives up way too many abilities that are universally useful for abilities that are only useful in certain situations. Besides, it is the Chosen One archetype I want to play. I am a big fan of familiars.
To be fair stone strike is once a day per level, but that doesn't change the familiar factor, which is clearly a major factor, so there you have it. The thrush suggestion is actually from a chosen one in my current Runelords campaign, but I thought his idea had good merit.
And don't overlook the glory of your familiar spamming guidance, constantly and forever. But be careful of irritating your GM with it.
To be fair stone strike is once a day per level...
Ah, missed that per level part. Still, I'll take the 1/day until the creature is dead, constant bonus over something else to eat up my swift actions.
Spamming guidance? Seems like a big waste of a standard action to keep giving a +1 every round. I'd rather find a way to give the familiar reach and have it use the Aid Another action for a +2 to hit or +2 AC.
The guidance spam can be done while your familiat cowers behind you taking cover, and can be applied to any roll that seems important in the next minute. Sure, if you finagle reach into the mix you can use aid, but in the meantime don't knock free bonuses.
As far as a waste of standard actions, what else will your emmisary be doing most rounds? Come level 7 there will be lots of options, but before?
As far as a waste of standard actions, what else will your emmisary be doing most rounds? Come level 7 there will be lots of options, but before?
Probably perching on one of the other characters (I'll vote on the Cleric), giving him Guidance (as his BAB is lower) and popping a Lay on Hands (Paws) if his life gets too low. Either way, it'll save me an action in combat.
Hmm ... I'm starting to favor a slight dip into Sorcerer to pick up a bloodline. Tattooed Sorcerer, maybe. Not right away, probably near the level I pick up Sunblade. Or Bloodrager. Definitely after I get the Improved Familiar. There is a feat called Flumefire Rage that adds +1 damage to fire spells/spell-like abilities (and energy blasts) per die rolled, and doubles if you are in a Rage (or rage-like state, like from the rage spell). Sunblade can be used in a Rage and it seems like a decent choice to combine with Smite Damage.