Do bard-level increasing untyped bonusses on (certain) performances stack?

[Trevor86]

Hey everyone,

I wanted to ask a bit of advice regarding a character I'm running. She is a bard that has the 'three reasons to live' magic item and is possibly saving up money for a 'banner of the ancient kings'.

Three reasons to live has a text stating that 'When a bard uses this item to start a bardic performance, the effects of that bardic performance are calculated as if the bard were 6 levels higher'.

The banner of the ancient kings has a textline that says 'When worn by a bard, the effects of his inspire courage are calculated as if the bard were 4 levels higher'.

My question is: if I have both and start a bardic performance with the horn, how big is the bardlevel bonus on this bardic performance? Is is +6 or +10 and which actual rule is this based on?

As a side issue, there was a point raised recently on how exactly a character could use both since you need 2 hands to hold the flag. Personally I believe that since the horn only states that you need to start a performance with it, you could afterwards immediately let it go and just sing on while holding the flag, which would effectively be no different from a 2 handed character briefly letting go of his weapon with one hand to do something else. But I am curious for other opinions here; if I am wrong, then why am I wrong?

Kind regards,
Trevor

[Adjoint]

I'd say they stack, and you can use them both the way you describe, I see no problem with that.

[zza ni]

as for using both.
banner can be set, among other things, on any polearm. polearms need 2 hands to fight with, but only one to carry them (as any two handed weapon you can carry it with one hand, letting go and regripping is a free action, to use the other hand to take out items etc.)
so nothing prevent you from holding the banner on a polearm with one hand and using the other to blow the horn -hack there are cinematics pictures showing just that. a man blowing a horn\trumpet while holding on to a flag.

[GM Aerondor]

I think you'd want to talk with your GM about this.

Round one, using three reasons to live to get +6 to your bard level while you start your performance is a no brainer. IF it were on a rope around your neck you could drop it as a free action.

Generally wielding a weapon is a move equivalent action. So grasping hold of the flag with two hands could be then done in the same round.

Actually the banner doesn't say you need to have a firm grip on it for the bonus to bardic inspire courage, just for the other effects.

Whether a sane GM would want to have a bard's level boosted by ten is an interesting question. Of course inspire courage maxes out at +4 (at 17th effective bard level), and by the time you have enough cash for both the banner and the horn you are probably going to be approaching 11th already, so the stacking issue may not really be significant.

[SanderJK]

I would disagree mostly on the hands interpretation on the Banner. I think all its bonuses only work if you hold it in 2 hands.

The language is, as is often the case, sloppy, but the first paragraph interchanges between "wield" and "carry" and then later affirms that an earlier version of "carries" means "carries with both hands"

The second paragraph then starts with "When (a bard) carries"

Now it is true that the second paragraph doesn't explicitly say "two hands" or "firmly carries" anywhere, but I would apply continuation, that if starts of assuming "carries" as meaning "in two hands" it continues using that for the entire item description.
Otherwise you could even argue that carries doesn't even mean wield, the bard could wear it strapped on their back and have 2 free hands, for a shield and casting/fighting.

I would also argue that magic effects get brought into the world, and then continue at their same level. Spells certainly always do this.
The bardic performance is created as a (nonfree) action at some time A, and whatever that bonus gives, you would be allowed to continue as a free action. If you want to change it, you have to start a new perfomance.

You definitely need to hold the horn to produce the effect, so I would assume that you just run out of hands. If you somehow have 3 hands that are allowed to hold weapons / activate magical items, you could pull this trick.

I am not on as sure footing with what the other part. My instinct is that "are calculated as 6 levels higher" and "are treated as 4 levels higher" don't stack. It doesn't seem written like the way bonuses usually are (Gives a +X (type or untyped) bonus Y)