Specific case usage of the Adopted trait (Nine-tailed Scion)

[Zarius]

So, my GM and I are arguing the finer point of using the Adopted trait to take the Kitsune race trait Nine-tailed Scion.

Trait wrote:

Additionally, you can select Magical Tail as a bonus feat whenever your favored class grants you a bonus bloodline feat, combat feat, or metamagic feat instead of the normal type of feat granted by that class.

HE says that, because it doesn't actually say 'counts as meeting the requirements for the Magic Tail', you'd only ever get the race trait to caster level checks, and you'd never be allowed to take the Magic Tail feats.

I say that, because it explicitly states that you CAN take them, it implicitly counts as meeting the prerequisites. It says you CAN do it, so either you meet the requirement or it removes the requirement.

I'd really like to know if there's an addendum, FAQ, or similar that backs one side or the other. I'm also happy to take GM opinions, but I'd like reasoning for either side of the opinion (even if it's "you're partially crippling yourself taking those feats in place of fighter/ranger/wizard/etc feats, so go for it), so that I have rationale behind it.

[Dasrak]

You are technically correct, but are pushing a nonsensical interpretation. If you're not actually a Kitsune, you don't have the Kitsune biology to grow a magical tail.

[graystone]

Nothing stops you from picking magic tail as a bonus feat, as per the trait: This doesn't change the fact that you need to meet the prerequisite to USE the feat. You'd need something like the racial heritage feat to actually make use of the feats.

So, in essence, both you and the DM are wrong but for different reasons. ;)

[Saethori]

graystone wrote:

Nothing stops you from picking magic tail as a bonus feat, as per the trait: This doesn't change the fact that you need to meet the prerequisite to USE the feat. You'd need something like the racial heritage feat to actually make use of the feats.

I would be hesitant about using this as a ruling. There are a number of situations where you gain a feat without meeting the prerequisites.

Ranger says "He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.", and Monk says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.". Note that these reference "choosing" and "selecting", not "using" as you are currently making a distinction. With that take, needing the prerequisites to use the feat you were allowed to choose would invalidate a lot of characters.

If you can choose a feat, you can use it. It's as simple as that.

Though I do think just taking Racial Heritage should be the easiest way to appease the GM in this scenario, because at least that way you can actually say you have kitsune family, instead of just sprouting tails because you were taken in as an orphan.

[Pizza Lord]

Like mentioned, Racial Heritage would cover you having an unusual bloodline or physical feature that would be part of another race. The Adopted trait is not intended to alter your actual race or physiological makeup.

The Magic Tail feat is written specifically for kitsune. While I would probably allow a kitsune without a tail (due to birth defect or deformity) to take the feat and grow a tail, unless a creature has some kitsune heritage, I wouldn't allow them to grow a tail (or an extra one if they are a race that has one) just because they're adopted. A GM has to make judgement calls and I think that one is pretty fair.

Saethori wrote:

Ranger says "He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.", and Monk says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.". Note that these reference "choosing" and "selecting", not "using" as you are currently making a distinction. With that take, needing the prerequisites to use the feat you were allowed to choose would invalidate a lot of characters.

While this is true in general, all such abilities were written with standard races in mind. While there might be some gray areas, like letting someone gain scent, I wouldn't let a creature grow tusks, wings, or tails because they were adopted. Along those lines, if the trait specifically mentioned the creature (the race the feat is normally for) growing a slightly bigger snout and that was why they got scent, I wouldn't let a 'normal' nosed creature to take it.

While a one-armed ranger in your example is fully entitled to take the Two-weapon Fighting feat, he doesn't suddenly grow a new off-hand (he keeps whatever he has). While there may be certain special weapons or attacks that might count as off-hand attacks and benefit from the feat, like a spiked knee or headbutt, you won't get a new 'off-hand'.

Similarly, if there was a One-eyed trait for orcs that said they cut out an eye to honor [some one-eyed entity] and as such gained greater darkvision, if a cyclops was adopted and chose that trait, they don't just get the greater darkvision because they already only have one eye, they either cut it out (stupidly) and are blind... or they didn't cut out their eye, so don't benefit. If they do, they don't get to declare that they can see 120 feet with darkvision even though they have no eyes anymore because the ability, which was written specifically for a race with two eyes, says so.

There are just too many varied abilities, races, and alternate abilities to each race to lay out one blanket statement to cover everything. I think sticking with Racial Heritage for physical anomalies and keeping Adopted in the spirit of being Adopted is the safer call.

[graystone]

Saethori wrote:

I would be hesitant about using this as a ruling. There are a number of situations where you gain a feat without meeting the prerequisites.

When that's the case, it's called out. Note the part of the sections you quoted: "need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them". This is something not listed for the trait. It does NOT allow you to bypass the prerequisites for use but just for acquisition: It allows selection without granting the ability to ignore prerequisites. This is something that isn't an issue for the kitsune but IS one for anyone else.

The only other way to read it is that the trait ONLY adds the feat to the bonus feat list and doesn't even allow you to pick it up without becoming a kitsune. Either way, you don't get to actually USE the feat in question so it's an academic question.