For the most part I love Paizo and especially PFS.
There's plenty I disagree with but it's normally a healthy disagreement where we can resolve our differences and I see the reasoning behind a decision even if I don't like it.
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Here Obsidian said that if you buy content for Pathfinder Adventures on mobile, you'll get it for free on PC.
Now that Pathfinders Adventures has released on PC, this promise has been gone back on.
Note even the Obsidian page says you get a base set free and mentions PC Here. A clear falsehood.
I see something about an Ambassador Program, giving 10% off and a free upgrade.
I don't want a discount on further content, I want what I was promised and I don't feel like that's too much to ask.
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I understand it's a licensed product but the intro screen has Paizo's logo on it. Meaning Paizo is at least partially responsible.
This is entirely the doing of Obsidian, I'm certain.
Paizo has no control over Obsidian's business decisions.
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This is entirely the doing of Obsidian, I'm certain.
Paizo has no control over Obsidian's business decisions.
Actually since it's a license they can have a lot of control over Obsidian's business decisions. Other examples of such would be EA not allowing the Dragon Age RPG to have a Hero Lab module made or LucasFilm not allowing PDFs of Star Wars RPGs (at least for PDFs of the printed products).
Hey there.
The base version of the mobile game is free.
The base version of the Steam game costs money.
I have purchased content on the mobile version (iOS), and after I purchased the Steam version and linked my accounts, all content that was on mobile was available to me, as such there is some content that I have only paid for once.
The content that I have purchased on both Mobile and Steam is Adventure 3, 4, 5 and 6, as I purchased these on mobile and they are part of the base game on Steam.
As an early adopter and supporter I certainly have been screwed by Obsidian's decision, but if I were a new user, then paying $25 for the base game (without discount), or $40 for all content (without discount) and being able to access all the content on Steam and mobile platform sounds like a pretty good deal.
Chief Technical Officer
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Here Obsidian said that if you buy content for Pathfinder Adventures on mobile, you'll get it for free on PC.
You're misunderstanding the answer they gave, and removing it from the context of the question it answered.
The question asked in the post you linked to was "Let's say I buy the the pass for Rise of the Runelords on my tablet, will I have to purchase it a second time once it's released through Steam to play it on my PC? Or are the purchases tied directly to a login that'll be universal?" The question was specifically about in-game purchases.
Their answer to that question ("Universal, your purchases are tied to your PlayFab account") is correct: If you have the free mobile version, and you have purchased in-game content (like the RotR Season Pass), and then you buy the desktop version and sync up your accounts, the purchased content will be unlocked for the desktop.
If you can find me an actual quote where they said they would give you the PC version free based on other purchases, I will go to them and make sure they stand by it, but I don't believe they said that anywhere.
Note even the Obsidian page says you get a base set free and mentions PC Here. A clear falsehood.
Clearly they didn't update the page correctly, but that's a mistake, not a lie. I've let them know.
Vic, thank you for responding to someone else who spoke a bit too stridently for my taste.
That being said, I agree with him. What I understood from the launch of Pathfinder Adventures on mobile was that if I bought it on mobile, it wouldn't require me to buy it on PC. That's what I went into it with the understanding of, and quite frankly, I would not have bought the Rise of the Runelords pass if I'd known I would have had to buy it for PC.
This decision has utterly alienated me when it comes to the PACG on computer. Which saddens me, really. They should have been more clear about things, but they weren't. And unfortunately, that is now making me question my decision to support the Kingmaker CRPG and other games as well.
Just so you understand my opinion, mind.
I think I'm missing something. How would you have bought the game on mobile in the first place? Isn't it available for free?
I remember downloading the game itself for free, then buying some in-app purchases. With that in mind, it makes sense that in-app purchases would be transferable, but I don't see how downloading a free game on mobile could translate into not having to buy the game on PC.
What am I missing?
And unfortunately, that is now making me question my decision to support the Kingmaker CRPG and other games as well.
I'm not sure that any experience given by Obsidian will reflect on the Kingmaker game. It's a completely different studio, with no connection that I know of to the folks behind the card game app.
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I think I'm missing something. How would you have bought the game on mobile in the first place? Isn't it available for free?
I remember downloading the game itself for free, then buying some in-app purchases. With that in mind, it makes sense that in-app purchases would be transferable, but I don't see how downloading a free game on mobile could translate into not having to buy the game on PC.
What am I missing?
I paid $25 for the Rise of the Runelords full set, over the course of the year, and a handful of minor perks. All of which appear to be part of the game that I'd have to purchase via Steam. Therefore, paying for the same content twice. The impression I was given from the beginning was that they were going to use the same style for Steam, get the game free, but without any of the adventure path modules, so when it launched I'd have full access. Obviously that wasn't the case.
And unfortunately, that is now making me question my decision to support the Kingmaker CRPG and other games as well.I'm not sure that any experience given by Obsidian will reflect on the Kingmaker game. It's a completely different studio, with no connection that I know of to the folks behind the card game app.
As for this part, I took part in the Pathfinder Online proof of concept Kickstarter as well. I got the impression then that this would give me something if the game was approved. I wasn't too upset when that turned out to not be the case, but it still bothered me slightly, and we can see how PFO is doing.
Repeat what feels like a bait-and-switch with the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, and I'm starting to feel like it just isn't worth supporting Pathfinder material in digital format. Even if I wasn't deliberately lied to, I feel like I was.
And unfortunately, that is now making me question my decision to support the Kingmaker CRPG and other games as well.I'm not sure that any experience given by Obsidian will reflect on the Kingmaker game. It's a completely different studio, with no connection that I know of to the folks behind the card game app.
Maybe now they feel entitled that they should get the Kingmaker video game for free, after all they may have bought Kingmaker modules from Paizo, and isn't that the same?
You're misunderstanding the answer they gave, and removing it from the context of the question it answered.
Thanks for responding Vic, I know it can be a no win situation to respond to such posts, so thank you for taking the time to do so, I really appreciate it. I tried really hard to keep my frustration as civil as possible.
Presumably you've seen other (less civil)
posts on the Obsidian forums with people having the same conclusion, so clearly the confusion is not just with me.
I still feel mislead, even if I agree I was not outright lied to.
I still expected better.
Maybe now they feel entitled that they should get the Kingmaker video game for free, after all they may have bought Kingmaker modules from Paizo, and isn't that the same?And unfortunately, that is now making me question my decision to support the Kingmaker CRPG and other games as well.I'm not sure that any experience given by Obsidian will reflect on the Kingmaker game. It's a completely different studio, with no connection that I know of to the folks behind the card game app.
I didn't expect it free. I'm saying that, considering what's happened with all the other video games, I'm not certain that I'm going to get what I think I'm paying for. That makes me sad, but whatever.
I based my purchases of the game on how the Mobile/PC version of the PFACG was going to work as explained last year. If they didn't understand what people were asking, fine. It's obviously my fault that I didn't understand that a free game with in-app purchases was going to require buying it on PC. Also, yes I do own Kingmaker and up until now have been excitedly telling other people about it. I'm not going to do that anymore.
The problem is that you are expecting that owning a game on one platform entitles you to get it for free on another platform. Do you get PC versions for free for games you own on Xbox or Playstation? No, you don't. Or, if you buy, say, Baldur's Gate as an iPad app, tha doesn't entitle you to get the PC version, or the Android version, for free. That's just how it works. Even if a game is free to play but sells in-app purchases, buying those on one platform does not necessarily entitle you to own them on other platforms. Yes, some games do it that way, but it's not generally how the gaming business works.
And I really don't understand how whatever you think about Pathfinder Adventures should have any bearing on Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which is made by a completely different company under completely different circumstances. And Paizo has nothing to do with the price politics of either of these companies. Drawing a connection here is simply, pardon my saying so, no offense is intended, irrational.
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I suggest you read the links, Zaister. Someone asked if they purchased the pass for Rise of the Runelords, if they'd have to purchase it again when it was released on PC. The answer was no, because all purchases were tied to the PlayFab account. Whether it was intended to or not, that sure as heck sounded to me like I wouldn't have to buy the content on the PC. No, they didn't say the PC version would be free, but it implied it. That's why I feel annoyed, because I never would have bought it if they hadn't said that.
I've been burned twice now by jumping in early on Pathfinder's digital content. Why shouldn't that make me leery? The writer for Kingmaker is the guy who helped Pillars of Eternity, and I hated the NPCs in that game, so it's making me leery there. I'm sorry, but guilt by association is a thing, and unfortunately that's what happened with me.
I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not saying it's rational. But this is my feedback to them. This decision has managed to convince me to not buy anything by Obsidian in the future, and is making me second-guess a lot of other potential purchases from Paizo. Which really sucks, because I loved meeting Lisa, Vic, Erik, and other people at PaizoCon.
When did you buy the game, then? I don't remember they said anything about a free PC version when the games started. You saying "jumping in early" sounds like you got Pathfinder Adventures when it first came out, but a PC version was not even announced then.
When did you buy the game, then? I don't remember they said anything about a free PC version when the games started. You saying "jumping in early" sounds like you got Pathfinder Adventures when it first came out, but a PC version was not even announced then.
I got it the first day. I did not buy the Season Pass until after the linked comment was stated, because I wanted to be certain I wouldn't have to buy it twice. Before that I was going to earn the AP packs by grinding, until I had more information. Goes to show that my trust was misplaced.
Ah I understand then. Though I still don't see how you got "burned by jumping in early". Anyway, do waht you want to do, but I don't think you're being fair to Owlcat Games or Paizo.
I 'got burned' because it means to get the same stuff it would end up costing me $65 rather than $40. If they'd told me up-front the PC version would've been different, I would have been unhappy but understood and held off on things. It wouldn't leave me feeling they were dishonest. But that's why I'm laying most of the blame on Obsidian.
As for Owlcat, I'm hopeful but now jaded. I probably will end up buying the game... after its release and I'm certain I'm not going end up with something far different than what I thought I was getting.
I'll admit I may be being somewhat unfair, but I get very, very prickly when people tell me wrong to feel like I was lied to, when the way things were stated was very misleading. I'm probably not going to cut back on my purchases of Starfinder, but it may lead to that. It definitely led me to decide against backing Owlcat. It strongly discouraged me from looking at further products, too.
It's a mess, and I slept on this before replying further just to try to mitigate my own responses. Because all of this makes me unhappy and sad.
Vic:
Brandon Adler (Lead Designer) here on reddit
Agrees that we were promised content that we are now not getting due to financial necessity.
Or am I misunderstanding his post as well?
(Duplicated via PM to Vic)
Agrees that we were promised content that we are now not getting due to financial necessity.
This is the way I think about issues like this when companies shift goalposts or seem to go back on past undertakings.
I'm not discounting anyone's feelings about the issue, nor denying their right to judge however they like. However, my way of thinking is to ask: "What would have happened instead?"
If we take the above at face value, if they'd held themselves to a cast-iron promise not to charge app-users who'd bought the extra material for the PC version then Obsidian wouldn't be able to put it out - that doesn't seem like an ideal outcome either.
Obviously, you want companies to be upfront and open about their plans, but one downside of that is that occasionally things are going to work out differently than they expected. It's unfortunate, but I'd rather a company I support makes changes like this (and own up to them) rather than decline from putting out product or risk financial hardship (with subsequent loss of product) trying to meet what turns out to be an unrealistic expectation.
I've had some dealings with Obsidian over getting the app to work. A number of their employees spent a fair amount of time with me for no financial reward helping me sort out what was ultimately a problem entirely of my own doing (trying to run an app on an unsupported Ipad version). It really didn't feel to me like a big corporate entity out to screw me for every cent (they even offered suggestions to try to get it to run outside the advertised parameters). I suspect this was simply a matter of wanting to reward their long term customers and subsequently finding that they'd over-reached when it came down to the nitty gritty of them actually paying for the transition to the new platform.
Having said that - isn't it a very small subset of people who have lost anything? It sounds to me that if you were going to buy the PC and then buy the RotRL stuff you're paying the same. It's only if you were planning on buying the PC version but not buying any extra product that you may be getting less than you expected (or might be paying more than you planned). Granted, I may well be misunderstanding things, so apologise if I've missed the point.
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If Obsidian had told me before the PC launch that they were changing plans because finances required them to, I wouldn't have cared, because then they would have told me. Instead others had to drag the information out of them. They avoided the problem instead of telling us. That is hands-down my biggest issue with this. It was dishonest.
But let me backtrack and explain my stance on this. If I had waited all this time and chose to buy the Steam version, including the Obsidian Edition, it would have cost me $30. Without the sale, $40.
Obsidian is offering those of us who paid ~$25 or more on purchases a free upgrade to Obsidian Edition, which is a $15 increase in cost without the sale, with the sale, it's worth about...$11.25, if I'm doing the math right. So, I paid $25.00, plus I'd have to pay about $18.75 for the base game, or $43.75 in total, compared to $30 right now. Without the sale, it'd be $50 vs. $40. Either way, I would have to pay more.
But for me it comes down to dishonesty on Obsidian's part. Why did people have to ask to find out plans had changed? They should have told us. Instead, they've convinced me to never touch anything by Obsidian ever again unless they fix it. And I doubt they will.
Edit: I must add that now that my initial ire has calmed down somewhat (seriously, I take it badly when people don't think I have a right to foul feelings due to falsehoods), I've transferred most of my ire to Obsidian, not Paizo. However, the general performance of game-based Kickstarters, along with this incident have definitely made me leery of touching anything Pathfinder based in Pre-Order, Early Access, or Kickstarter states.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Vic:
Brandon Adler (Lead Designer) here on reddit
Agrees that we were promised content that we are now not getting due to financial necessity.
Or am I misunderstanding his post as well?
(Duplicated via PM to Vic)
I'm looking into it.
Also, your link goes just to Brandon's answer; this link includes your question (mentioned so that others looking in have the full context).
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Chief Technical Officer
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I sent the link from my post above to Obsidian, along with the following question:
Guys, I’m confused here. My understanding is if you have the free mobile version, and you have purchased in-game content (like the RotR Season Pass), and then you buy the desktop version and sync up your accounts, the purchased content will be unlocked for the desktop. Is that not correct? Or was “to be blunt, you don’t” a response to just the “how do I get my FREE Base Set” question, and not to the first question?
I received the following reply:
Actually, we do give people all their content. If, for example, you have dice on your mobile and you buy the PC version, you can merge your account and whatever content was on your mobile (dice) would then show up in the PC version.
The thing we are running into is that some users thought that because we share the content that it includes giving them the PC version for free.
Brandon was responding to the FREE part. Some users expected that shared content includes platforms and it doesn't.
So Brandon's response isn't as clear as it could have been. If you have the free mobile version, and you have purchased in-game content (like the RotR Season Pass), and then you buy the desktop version and sync up your accounts, the purchased content *will* be unlocked for the desktop. But you do not get the desktop version for free just because you purchased content for the mobile version (though if you spent $25 or more on the mobile version, you do get a free upgrade to the Obsidian Edition when you buy the base edition).
Vic,
Thank you for looking into the issue. I'm not Pirate Rob, but I'm happy to hear you did look. I'm disappointed in them, but I understand that what they said and what I heard didn't match up.
Personally, I'm dropping the issue at this point, and won't say anything more. It isn't worth the personal angst, or worth holding against Paizo.
Thank you again.
Thanks again Vic, I appreciate you looking into it.
This high quality interaction with you is what I have come to expect from paizo.
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How the transactions and interactions have worked out with Obsidian and Pathfinder Adventures is not.
I am still disappointed and find what happened to be beneath the standards Paizo generally holds itself to and will be more skeptical of business dealings with Paizo partners going forward.