I have a crazy GM who wants to do a 3 class Gestalt game. Advice?


Advice

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Well, if 3pp is available I'd go spheres of power. Incanter/mageknight/symbiat

Full BAB, all saves. Lots of magic talents. Int to AC, decent skills. You could substitute sorcerer for incanter if you want magic points instead of talents.


I'm torn between a Empiricist Investigator / Kensai Magus / Inspired Blade Swashbuckler or a Zen archer/ Weapon Master fighter (who gets advanced weapons training Focus Weapon to scale damage as a War priest) and Eldritch Archer Magus. The last one has tons of feats, great base archery damage, bonded arcane weapon, spells etc...


Barbarian/Sorcerer/Alchemist into Dragon Disciple/Evangelist/Master Chymist with Eldritch Heritage/Improved/Greater (Orc) for ALL the Strength.


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1. The GM is nuts

2. Bladebound Kensai/Wizard/Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler.


Titan Mauler Unchained barbarian/Martial Artist Monk/Cleric

Along with the feat Crusader's Flurry you'll be raging and flurrying with an oversized version of your deities weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Eigengrau wrote:
I'm torn between a Empiricist Investigator / Kensai Magus / Inspired Blade Swashbuckler
Snowlilly wrote:
Bladebound Kensai/Wizard/Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler.

I don't think anyone's mentioned yet, but I'd be careful about Kensai // Inspired Blade because this FAQ on not using Slashing Grace with spell combat probably also applies to Fencing Grace, which has the same "any time another hand is otherwise occupied" wording. Dervishing still works fine, though you miss out on Int to panache. Another option for a Dex Magus gestalt would be to use Fighter or Avenger Vigilante instead of Swash since Lethal/Trained Grace gives you a damage boost when you use Dex to hit but Str for damage.

GM Rednal wrote:
There's basically two schools of thought on gestalt/tristalt/etc characters. You can either aim to do the same thing much better than usual (Fighter/Zen Archer/Inquisitor), or you can really diversify your build and try to accomplish more roles without necessarily being much above normal in any of them. I prefer the latter, myself - it's kinda hard to compensate for PCs with powers too far beyond what the system expects, and I like being able to solve many kinds of problems when I play. XD

Those are the two strategies, but it's more of a continuum than one or the other. The Fighter//Zen Archer//Inquisitor, for example, does have skills and magical utility on top of its main "Archery" focus. An intermediate build be Fighter//Oracle//Bard, where both Bard and Oracle provide combat buffs along with debuffing, support, and non-combat options.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
@Darksol the Painbringer I don't know how multiclassing as a gestalt works but if it does I think I'd go for the oracle as the prestige because most of the mysteries aren't actually that useful (unsurprisingly their is some overlap) and I'd rather have the arcane spells at the highest level progression over the oracle ones personally.

Unless you have the Scaled Disciple feat (which is for kobolds), Dragon Disciple only advances your arcane spellcasting levels - not oracle casting. And even with the feat you basically end up trading revelations, curse progression, and three levels of divine casting for three levels of arcane casting, because the bloodline benefits from continuing to advance as a Sorc overlap with the benefits from DD.


Meh I'd probably just not bother with with the dragon disciple stuffgo Dex and Cha and rely on spells till you can buy an amulet of agile might fists


Chaotic Surge Wilder / Psion Egoist / Psy Warrior

Alternatively, consider Vitalist instead of Psy War


Elan w/ Max Charisma, Dex>Con=Int=Wis>Str

Use -1 HP to +1 PP every level. 1PP = 5 HP from Vigor

Traits:
Psi-Gifted: Mind Thrust
Reactionary

Lvl1 - Mind Thrust, Psicrystal Affinity
Lvl2 - Vigor
Lvl3 - Empower Power
Lvl4 - Share Pain, Inertial Armor (Extra Power Known from Elan Favored Class 1/4)
Lvl5 - Psionic Meditation
Lvl6 - Concussive Onslaught
Lvl7 - Expanded Knowledge(EK): Energy Missile
Lvl8 - Telekinetic Maneuver, Solicit Psicrystal (Extra Power Known),
Lvl9 - EK: Metamorphosis
Lvl10 - Fold Space
Lvl11 - EK: Remote Viewing
Lvl12 - Retrieve, Incarnate (Extra Power Known)
Lvl13 - EK: Energy Current
Lvl14 - Disintegration
Lvl15 - Split Psionic Ray
Lvl16 - Barred Mind, Energy Wave (Extra Power Known)
Lvl17 - Psicrystal Containment
Lvl18 - Reality Revision
Lvl19 - Maximize Power
Lvl20 - Shadow Body, Greater Psychoport (Extra Power Known


Get True Metamorphosis from Egoist. Nothing will stop a Psy War with all this behind him. You'll have a 60ML with a potential +21 ML from chaotic wilder 4 surge with a +3 Surge Crystal and overchannel+Wild Surge (new feat from Psionics Augmented: Wilder).

Imagine doing a Maximized Split Psi Ray on Disintegration 150d6 + 150d6 (so static 900 + 900 dmg) with a Fort Save DC of 48 + whatever your Cha Modifier is, twice (you can use both rays on one target).

Solicit Psicrystal + Energy Current or Telekinetic Maneuver is really handy.

Remote Viewing + Retrieve = Interdimensional Carmen Sandiego.


If you really want to ramp up the actions per round, use concussive onslaught somewhere, have your Psicrystal take over energy current, and start using Hustle, Schism and Fission.


And make sure you get the lvl 1 precog powers to buff your attack rolls, dmg rolls, saves and AC.

Shadow Lodge

psionic classes do gestalt well due to the pooled power points
but I object to you not taking ageis in that build and instead going psi warrior


Yeah, Aegis would be an excellent choice as well. But you should focus on high ML for Wilder. Without 60 ML in this build, Wilder is pointless.


Personally, I would go Psy Warrior. I want all dem combat feats :)


Get EK: Astral Construct... somewhere, it's so good with wild surge, and really cheap. Summon Monster (with extreme customization) I-IX.


You could have your Schism'ed mind and Fissioned ally summoning Astral Constructs for you?


Leadership feat?

Shadow Lodge

now to build the ultimate buffer
bard/life oracle/paladin

or maybe skald/oracle/cavalier


Also, consider the Crystal Creature feat for Psicrystal, and get a falcon or hawk, or anything that flies, then share powers on True Metamorphosis to make your falcon bigger size category and then use true metamorphosis again, but only on yourself (don't share with the Psicrystal) and augment yourself however you like..

You can ride your Falcon-Psicrystal into combat with near-permanent flight (10mins/lvl). Use Solicit Psicrystal to have your Falcon take over concentration on Energy Current.

If you Max Emp 4 surge w/ overchannel Energy Current, thats 75d6+75 (+50%) fire/cold dmg every round for 60 rounds vs up to two enemies (within 15 ft of each other) within 175ft of your Psicrystal for 60 PP. So that's a static 787 cold/fire dmg per round to two targets for 60 rounds (so potential/theoretical 47,220 dmg across 60 rounds to a single target, 94,440 dmg if you had perfect exposure to two targets). Fort/Refl DC 47 + Cha Mod, save for half dmg each round. And since your Psicrystal is maintaining the concentration, you're free to nuke or control elsewhere.

Shadow Lodge

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Also, consider the Crystal Creature feat for Psicrystal, and get a falcon or hawk, or anything that flies, then share powers on True Metamorphosis to make your falcon bigger size category and then use true metamorphosis again, but only on yourself (don't share with the Psicrystal) and augment yourself however you like..

You can ride your Falcon-Psicrystal into combat with near-permanent flight (10mins/lvl). Use Solicit Psicrystal to have your Falcon take over concentration on Energy Current.

please link me that feat


Meanwhile, you can be a Huge-sized Psywar swinging a big ol' beatstick (buffed by powers and permanent effects from Incarnate) that can teleport as a move action (Fold Space) and split psi ray Disintegrate 900/900 dmg to one or two targets within 700ft of you, and have your schismed mind and fissioned ally summoning a small army of Astral Constructs every round as well.


Lord Foul II wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Also, consider the Crystal Creature feat for Psicrystal, and get a falcon or hawk, or anything that flies, then share powers on True Metamorphosis to make your falcon bigger size category and then use true metamorphosis again, but only on yourself (don't share with the Psicrystal) and augment yourself however you like..

You can ride your Falcon-Psicrystal into combat with near-permanent flight (10mins/lvl). Use Solicit Psicrystal to have your Falcon take over concentration on Energy Current.

please link me that feat

It's in Psionics Augmented: Wilder, sorry no linky :(

Shadow Lodge

Lord Foul II wrote:

now to build the ultimate buffer

bard/life oracle/paladin

or maybe skald/oracle/cavalier

either way, pick fates favored trait and the discordant voice feat

ok now for the DPR Olympics

Take a barbarian/cavalier/inquisitor

rage+bane+pounce+lance+mount's str+mount is also raging+teamwork feats

everything dies


If you're going Barbarian, invest 4 feats into Improved Cleaving Finish. You're a ginsu buzzsaw whenever you need to be.


Flying Blade Swashbuckler/Knife Master Rogue/Warpriest
Take all of the Startoss Style

AKA: "You do how much damage with a dagger?"

Shadow Lodge

I did, and now my ultimate bodyguard has changed from Kensai Bladebonded Magus/Fighter (mutagenic warrior, eldritch guardian)/Monk (master of many styles or weapon master)

and now it's Kensai Bladebonded Magus/Fighter (mutagenic warrior, eldritch guardian)/Ageis

just need to decide what is the best option for superior psicrystal

(also cleaving finish is completely unnecessary if you have a mount)


Vigor +405 HP for you and Psicrystal (share pain)
Inertial Armor +44 Armor Bonus to ac (and incorporeal can't bypass)
Offensive/Defensive Precog is +27 Insight bonus to Attack, and +27 insight to AC and all saves.
Offensive Prescience is +28 Insight Bonus to Damage

Shadow Lodge

remember that there is a cap to how much you can augment a given power

the cap is a number of power points equal to your caster level


60pp + chaotic wild surge +18ML, overchannel +3ML. = 81ML for 60 pp


And this is without boosting ML with items, like Ioun Stones, etc.


Psicrystal can take over Telekinetic maneuver as well, imagine a 1v1 fight with all this BS going on, and you're being Grappled/Pinned, Tripped, Disarmed, and Bull Rushed every round with a CMB of 1d20 + 60 + my Cha Mod


Your conc check would be DC: 10 + My CMB + the level of spell you're casting

Shadow Lodge

60 PP is extremely expensive and chaotic wilder is dangerous

that tactic basically has an effective 25% spell falure built in just by the manifester level modifier not to mention the increased chance of psychic enervation and devastating effects of failure

that'd only work in total with half your spells or less


The new feats from Psionics Augmented: Wilder can remove the daze effect and reduce enervation to 20% and with enervation fortitude, PP loss would be -30pp


And telekinetic maneuver only costs 9 pp + 5pp to make Psicrystal take over as a swift action


Circlet of sheltered mind reduces PE chance to 15%.


I could take all these feats with the Psion's bonus feats, and get Craft Cog Crystal. I'd never run out of PP.


And I can augment / wild surge Reality Revision (Wish) using Endowed Mind (free for Chaotic Wilder) to increase the save DC to 47 + Cha Mod.

Shadow Lodge

you still can't spend more power points on an individual casting of a power than your manifester


But with wilder, psion and psy war, that's 60 ML's

Shadow Lodge

no it's not
gestalt overlaps not stacks

just like how a wizard/sorcerer won't be throwing out a 40 hour mage armor

that's not how that works


Is that RAW or house rules?

Shadow Lodge

that is RAW
just like how a fighter/wizard doesn't get 1d10+1d6 HP


I just re-read Gestalt campaign rules. I didn't see anything saying manifestor/caster levels don't stack. I saw it's similar to multiclassing though. For instance, If you go 4sorc, 19 wilder, 1 psion, 10 cerebremancer with psionic knack trait and wildblood mage feat, you would have no ML loss from the sorc 4 dip, you'd cast spells like a 14th lvl sorc and manifest powers with an effective ML34.


Do you know where it says Manifestor levels don't stack?

Shadow Lodge

Well first off common sense
But here

lass Features
A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druid’s prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

Manifestor level is something the two (three) classes share


Weirdo wrote:


Snowlilly wrote:
Bladebound Kensai/Wizard/Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler.
I don't think anyone's mentioned yet, but I'd be careful about Kensai // Inspired Blade because this FAQ on not using Slashing Grace with spell combat probably also applies to Fencing Grace, which has the same "any time another hand is otherwise occupied" wording. Dervishing still works fine, though you miss out on Int to panache. Another option for a Dex Magus gestalt would be to use Fighter or Avenger Vigilante instead of Swash since Lethal/Trained Grace gives you a damage boost when you use Dex to hit but Str for damage.

While fighter was my first impulse, I went with swashbuckler for good reflex saves + precise strike. Evasive at 11'th is also a good deal.

Giving up all those bonus feats does hurt though.

Quote:
GM Rednal wrote:
There's basically two schools of thought on gestalt/tristalt/etc characters. You can either aim to do the same thing much better than usual (Fighter/Zen Archer/Inquisitor), or you can really diversify your build and try to accomplish more roles without necessarily being much above normal in any of them. I prefer the latter, myself - it's kinda hard to compensate for PCs with powers too far beyond what the system expects, and I like being able to solve many kinds of problems when I play. XD
Those are the two strategies, but it's more of a continuum than one or the other. The Fighter//Zen Archer//Inquisitor, for example, does have skills and magical utility on top of its main "Archery" focus. An intermediate build be Fighter//Oracle//Bard, where both Bard and Oracle provide combat buffs along with debuffing, support, and non-combat options.

Another thing to consider is action economy. A lot of builds can only act as a single class in any given round. "Do I want to cast a wizard or cleric spell this round?" Kensai is the glue that allows you to fully bind a full caster to a full martial and act as both in the same round. Superior action economy is often the deciding factor in combat.

Kensai is chosen over baseline magus because wizard forces you to forgo armor. Might as well trade in the armor proficiency you cannot use for something you can. Likewise, the reduced spellcasting from kensai means less when you already have full casting from wizard.

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