What special material do I use for weight reduction, Mithral or Darkleaf Cloth? Or do I just choose whichever fits the culture better (Druma in this case)? I ask because it says it may be made of leather, metal, or a mixture of both; but PFS is not known for interpretation.
This is a very good question! I'm inclined too say it will probably turn out to be Darkleaf cloth since it is essentially the same thing as studded leather (stat-wise). Sadly I think this is going to fall under the same issue that Armored Coat does; some folk say it's primarily leather for special materials while others say it's metal... and there's no specific agreement that I am aware.
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What special material do I use for weight reduction, Mithral or Darkleaf Cloth? Or do I just choose whichever fits the culture better (Druma in this case)? I ask because it says it may be made of leather, metal, or a mixture of both; but PFS is not known for interpretation.
I don't think you can use special materials for this one, since it is basicially a generic uniform, as far as I understand.
"Depending on the country, parade armor may be crafted from leather, metal, or a mixture of both." So IMO you could use either material and you'd be fine.
However, this is for PFS so to if you want to avoid and table variance, take mithril. I say this because they give an example of a set as "chain shirt, tabard, leather greaves, and a winged helm." That example is clearly mostly metal so you can point to it if needed.
Murdock Mudeater: It's "a different uniform for use in showy noncombat situations such as parades, coronation ceremonies, and so on." As such, it's a dress uniform. As long as it looks the same, I can't see how the actual materials matter. So taking the example set, if you dyed the leather greaves the same color, does it matter if it normal leather or darkleaf? Is anyone going to notice the difference between mithril and iron/steel chain shirt underneath the tabard? Now flashy materials, like dragon hide or Bulette Armor, may not fit well but even those aren't explicitly prohibited.
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Murdock Mudeater: It's "a different uniform for use in showy noncombat situations such as parades, coronation ceremonies, and so on." As such, it's a dress uniform. As long as it looks the same, I can't see how the actual materials matter. So taking the example set, if you dyed the leather greaves the same color, does it matter if it normal leather or darkleaf? Is anyone going to notice the difference between mithril and iron/steel chain shirt underneath the tabard? Now flashy materials, like dragon hide or Bulette Armor, may not fit well but even those aren't explicitly prohibited.
I was not under the impression that you could conceal the special materials an item is made of. And you say "under the tabard" but the tabard leaves much of the armor exposed which would make the armor very visible. Anyway, if you want normal armor, and then buy a tabard, you can. But I think Parade armor is intended to be generic.
Dragonhide Parade Armor is prohibited for PFS characters (there's a very specific list of legal armors in the CRB for dragonhide and, in PFS, you can only make what is specifically mentioned. Parade armor is not on the list. I know, stupid, but them's the rules.). For home games, ask the GM regarding dragonhide since I don't think the CRB list is meant to cover all of the intended armors.
Murdock Mudeater: I don't see why you can't conceal materials. Do you know what kind of wood that painted house is? Oak, birch, ect? Add to that Appraise is a standard action with a Dc 20 so most people aren't going to notice different materials unless they are clearly different [like dragon hide/bulette]. Nothing under darkcloth notes it's visually different than normal cloth/leather. Mithral just notes it's 'silvery'... Not much of a stand out.
As to PFS I have NO, and I repeat, NO idea about it. I'm talking about normal rules as I have no clue what's up with PFS's house rules. However, I was mentioning dragonhide ONLY as an example of materials that would be clearly different from normal materials and not explicitly as a material for parade armors.
As to tabards, it depends on the type. Not all are sleeveless and/or open at the sides. They can come with short sleeves, shoulder pieces, hoods and/or closed sides. Even a traditional type wouldn't show much of a chain shirt sticking out.
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Murdock Mudeater: I don't see why you can't conceal materials. Do you know what kind of wood that painted house is? Oak, birch, ect? Add to that Appraise is a standard action with a Dc 20 so most people aren't going to notice different materials unless they are clearly different [like dragon hide/bulette]. Nothing under darkcloth notes it's visually different than normal cloth/leather. Mithral just notes it's 'silvery'... Not much of a stand out.
Just not sure if you can conceal the materials in-game. Even if I fail to identify a magical weapon, I don't think I even require success to determine the material of a mundane item. I suppose you could attempt disguise, but only if that was actually the intention, just painting it to protect the base material wouldn't qualify as a disguise.
Regarding Appriase, that DC20 check is to determine the monetary value of the item, or determine if the item is magical. As written, it doesn't affect your understanding of materials involved, or in what weapon it is.
Technically, the skill specifically mentioning the Identification of metals (or stone or minerals) is Knowledge (Dungeonering) which considers this a DC 10 check. Knowledge (Arcana) covers materials manufactured by magic at DC 20. Not seeing anything for leather or cloth materials. You could certainly substitute a Profession or Craft skill on a related topic.
Well, since the character is supposed to be a current or former member of Druma's Mercenary League (aka Blackjackets), and their benefactors ensure they recieve the best gear, special materials wouldn't be a question of "if?", but "which?". Looking at the pictures of the 3 Blackjackets on the wiki, all have black jackets, but they only one with it open reveals black metal armor underneath. I guess black mithral?
Murdock Mudeater: Appraise is to tell if something is valuable. You can tell something is metal but what metal? If you automatically know something is mithral then don't you bypass that function of appraise? Then what if the material is covered in paint/dye? How does it look like mithal covered in black paint?
Skills say:
Identify common metal or semiprecious stone Profession Miner dc 5
Identify rare metal or precious gem, Profession Miner dc 15
Identify mineral, stone, or metal know Dungeoneering dc 10
I've always taken these to mean in their natural form, IE metal ore, uncut gems, ect. Why would a miner/underground person automatically have information of processed metals/gems? And I think this is the reason you see no ID cloth/leather.
There IS this:
Identify the sort of creature from which a piece of leather came, craft Leather DC 10 but it has 2 notes. 1st is you need to be trained and second that's for common animals so add +5 dc for other animals. it's clearly not something everyone can do.
So I'd say it not so much 'concealing' what the material is but not automatically allowing every passerby to know the precise material breakdown of your equipment without them making the needed rolls. You have to make rolls to figure out something is masterwork so why would RARE materials get a pass?
"Darkwood: This rare magic wood", "Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens", "Mithral: Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal". If every passing peasant can point out which sword is mithral or adamantine from 50', how can anyone claim it's rare?
EDIT: I think part of the issue is that many of us handwave many of these rolls. Often we just have us told it's a 'mithral dagger worth 2000gp' or '200gp in emeralds'. And to a certain extent I'm fine with it from the perspective that if the party takes it's time and rolls that we'd figure it out anyway so it just saves time. That perspective fails though for the 8 year old pickpocket: He might see a dagger with a nice scabbard to snag but shouldn't gain the knowledge it's a mithral dagger even before he pulls it from it's sheath. Even after pulling it out, having never seen mithral before, is he going to call it a mithral dagger or a 'shiney' steel dagger? If we go by the know Dungeoneering roll, everyone always knows every metal/stone/mineral from every part on the multiverse as long as they don't have a minus on their int stat...
I would think if a *DRUMA* follower actually was going to bling out their stuff, they'd use the most expensive but effective material to prove the strength of the Prophecies.
I just don't see them 'doing it on the cheap'.
EDIT: "My robes? Yes,they're spun mithril interspersed with gold and platinum embroidery, and they cost more to make than you will make in your entire Society adventuring career. No, they aren't for sale."
I would think if a *DRUMA* follower actually was going to bling out their stuff, they'd use the most expensive but effective material to prove the strength of the Prophecies.I just don't see them 'doing it on the cheap'.
I was thinking that officers/special units from any nation would be inclined to 'bling' out the normal dress uniform. What goes better with all those metals than a silk tabard, jeweled greaves and 'shiny silvery metal' chain? This should be especially true if the wearer was some kind of noble. [or as you say a druma follower;) ]
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Murdock Mudeater: Appraise is to tell if something is valuable. You can tell something is metal but what metal? If you automatically know something is mithral then don't you bypass that function of appraise? Then what if the material is covered in paint/dye? How does it look like mithal covered in black paint?
Not sure I know enough about actual blacksmithing to know the answer there, especially with regards to ficticious materials.
I have done welding in the past, and you can determine certain aspects of material composition based on the weld pattern used, the placement of the welds, and the size of the welds - and this certainly shows through paint. The shape of the object, and certain physical limitations of the metal will also give away the material. But, yeah, by grinding the welds smooth, and deliberately using oddly shaped materials, you can certainly make determining the metal hard. And even there, you'd only learn the basic metal, not any specific alloys without advanced testing.
I can usually determine the difference between a Steel, an Alluminum, or a Titanium bicycle frame just by looking at it and maybe picking it up. The paint doesn't conceal the material at all.
But for pathfinder, I'd probably handwaive most of this. If one of the PCs was especially proud of a relevant skill, I'd test the group so that PC could shine. But that would be the whole point, just making the PC feel that they were useful (which also helps keep them engaged).
For appraise, the skill, you could determine if it was magical and it's value. With a good roll, it would be pretty easy to have a confident understanding of the materials used, just based on the value and if it was magical or not. Though again, I'd probably handwaive this too.
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Skills say:
Identify common metal or semiprecious stone Profession Miner dc 5
Identify rare metal or precious gem, Profession Miner dc 15
Identify mineral, stone, or metal know Dungeoneering dc 10
I've always taken these to mean in their natural form, IE metal ore, uncut gems, ect. Why would a miner/underground person automatically have information of processed metals/gems? And I think this is the reason you see no ID cloth/leather.
Oh, regarding this one. The Miner/underground person would know in regards to their tools. As part of their proffession, they need to know which materials would enable them to make tools to work with the special materials they find. In particular, seems like an Adamantine Mining pick would be a dangerous thing to have if you were mining for uncut stones (since the pick would likely damage the gems due to it being so easily able to penetrate hardness).
I have done welding in the past, and you can determine certain aspects of material composition based on the weld pattern used, the placement of the welds, and the size of the welds - and this certainly shows through paint. The shape of the object, and certain physical limitations of the metal will also give away the material. But, yeah, by grinding the welds smooth, and deliberately using oddly shaped materials, you can certainly make determining the metal hard. And even there, you'd only learn the basic metal, not any specific alloys without advanced testing.
You assume human/mundane crafting methods. Now, what if someone used fabricate? Ancient dwarf techniques? Used magic tools like amazing tools of manufacture. Now add in mythical/magical/alchemical materials... I'm unconvinced my characters can make the distinctions let alone you or I.
I can usually determine the difference between a Steel, an Alluminum, or a Titanium bicycle frame just by looking at it and maybe picking it up. The paint doesn't conceal the material at all.
Ah, but there is the rub. Interaction with the object isn't part of this. We're talking about people IDing armor worn by another. So can you ID Steel, Aluminum, or Titanium of a bike leaning against a wall 10' away?
Now even if interaction is a possibility, in a pathfinder world what you find could be deceiving. Is it light because of it's material or magic? Is it shiny because of magic, materials of maybe alchemy? Is it balanced because of skill or enchantment. This is where a specific skill would come in and shouldn't be something anyone off the street should be able to do be glancing at someone's armor as they walk by.
Oh, regarding this one. The Miner/underground person would know in regards to their tools. As part of their proffession, they need to know which materials would enable them to make tools to work with the special materials they find. In particular, seems like an Adamantine Mining pick would be a dangerous thing to have if you were mining for uncut stones (since the pick would likely damage the gems due to it being so easily able to penetrate hardness).
Oh, I disagree with this. they have no NEED to know how their tools are made. A carpenter doesn't have to have intimate knowledge of how saws and chisels are made: they'd just know they have to use X material tools for Y wood. A tailor doesn't need to know how scissors or a loom are made, just how to use them.
So I might agree that someone with a profession might have a chance to notice a tools quality or materials, it'd be by using/hefting/swinging the item around and giving it a try. I see NO reason that they'd create their own tools though.
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I have done welding in the past, and you can determine certain aspects of material composition based on the weld pattern used, the placement of the welds, and the size of the welds - and this certainly shows through paint. The shape of the object, and certain physical limitations of the metal will also give away the material. But, yeah, by grinding the welds smooth, and deliberately using oddly shaped materials, you can certainly make determining the metal hard. And even there, you'd only learn the basic metal, not any specific alloys without advanced testing.You assume human/mundane crafting methods. Now, what if someone used fabricate? Ancient dwarf techniques? Used magic tools like amazing tools of manufacture. Now add in mythical/magical/alchemical materials... I'm unconvinced my characters can make the distinctions let alone you or I.
I can usually determine the difference between a Steel, an Alluminum, or a Titanium bicycle frame just by looking at it and maybe picking it up. The paint doesn't conceal the material at all.Ah, but there is the rub. Interaction with the object isn't part of this. We're talking about people IDing armor worn by another. So can you ID Steel, Aluminum, or Titanium of a bike leaning against a wall 10' away?
Yes, usually. Picking it up would confirm a good guess, but I could be reasonably confident just by looking at the bicycle 10ft away.
Basically, the size of a weld should be twice the thickness of base material, with slight variation based on the angle of the weld. So I can determine the thickness of the pipe walls used to create the frame based on the weld's size.
Allumium is light, but isn't very strong a material, so it will require thicker material and therefore will have very large welds. Titanium is very strong, and will have very thin tubing, resulting in very small welds. Steel is the middle ground, as it is strong, but not as much as titanium on a per weight basis. And weight is a huge factor in a bicycle, since being able to move under human power limits the maximum weight of the bicylce.
Furthermore, Titanium is very expensive, Allumium is pretty expensive, and Steel is cheap by comparison. So you can confirm your hypothesis based on costly additional components on the bicycle. Most steel bicycles have cheap bolts to hold the wheels on, while alluminum and Titanium will likely include fancier components. Steel will rust, while Alluminum and Titanium will not (they'll still oxidize, but it isn't a huge operational issue like with rust), so the manufacturer will also likely cut corners on a steel bicycle in giving it components not protected very well against rust. There are expensive steel bicycles (like ones designed for pulling heavy loads), but again, those are built different and the difference would be visable.
The weld pattern for Allumium is also rather distinct, as allumium welders favor the dime pattern. For Titanium, it is likely a very tiny, exact weld, because aside from the material being expensive, the welding process is also more involved (You need to keep the local gases out of your welding area, as just normal air will contaminate your weld). If you screw up the titatium weld, you'd have to cut off the part contaminated, and start again. Steel, on the other hand, is a very pleasent material to weld and is very easy to fix if you screw up.
Regarding magical creation, I'm not totally sure, but I bet there would be tradecraft signs of how it was constructed (or how the magic constructed it). And, despite the spell doing all the work, it still has to conform to the limiations of the materials in the created item (by limitations, I mean that each material has certain properties when used to construct things, it's only so hard, has only so much elasticity, and so forth).
As for advanced techniques, yeah, a glance is probaly not going to do it if you've never seen anything like it before. But if you've studied others like it, and especially if you've seen them made, you could probably generate an educated guess. Plus, if the item has historical basis (like ancient dwarven) you may know about the material limitations relevant to that time period.
But still, you won't know the alloys, just the basics. You could probably determine the difference between steel and mithril at a glance, especially if it's been manufactured, as the material advantages will show in what was created. But nothing 100%, just an educated guess.