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Master Sniper
Sneaking Precision
If a character uses Master Sniper to take two shots, would this trigger Sneaking Precision? There are a few options to use if it is able to (Stunning Critical, Destroy Identity, etc), so I was curious with this combination.
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The implication that I see behind Master Sniper is that both of the attacks are considered as part of you hitting the enemy unaware (unlike attacking from Invisibility, where the first attack of your full-attack action 'breaks' your invisibility, and then the rest aren't against flat-footed AC).
Because both of your attacks are eligible for sneak attack, if they both connect then Sneaking Precision gets to apply.
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Master Sniper
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Benefit: While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.
Where it say that the second attack benefit from sneak attack?
It seem to imply that, but it don't say that you "maintain your obscured location" after the first shot, and the rules are very clear about you losing it when you attack.
As written:
- you make the first attack while benefiting for stealth
- as you aren't hiding immediately after the first shot, you don't benefit from stealth with the second shot;
- then you "immediately use Stealth again" to be hidden again.
As the prerequisites are fairly weak, I am not convinced of the most lenient interpretation.
hmm, mybe not.
sniping has it's own rules about breaking stealth.
in the hide section of the stelth skill (before it goes into the sniping section) it say:
"Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."
from the above we learn that the attack in the sniping action does not nececerly break the hiding.
-normal sniping not master sniper. meaning ur allready hidden then its a standard action to shoot and a move action to hide imidtly after.
basicly if you are succesful in both hide checks, before and after (with -20 for after "to maintain your abscured location") the attack, you do not break stealth.
now lets look at master sniper change to the normal sniping:
"While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again..."
(i automaticly asume that master sniper is used while or like normal sniping and normal sniping rules apply where they fit.as the name implay, otherwise it's out of context all together)
so in master sniper instead of a standard action+ move action imidtly after to hide, you use a full round action that include 2 attacks and a stealth check. since that is all it changes from normal sniping im left to asume the rule about attacking break stealth "except when sniping " still apply and both attacks if both hide checks are made. as they are used WHILE sniping = they are with stealth intact - sneak attacks.
the rule that you used -that attacking break stealth, and thus the 2nd shot is not a sneak, is specificly not used in sniping.
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I don't think I could have put anymore more succinctly. Sniping rules are different to standard stealth rules, and Master Sniper functions as sniping.
(i automaticly asume that master sniper is used while or like normal sniping and normal sniping rules apply where they fit.as the name implay, otherwise it's out of context all together)
edit - now that i look, i actuly have a strong prof that master sniper is talking about the sniping action and relate to it's rules (beside the obvius rai\ spirit of th ewords \etc) - as it talks about "Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action".
i allways thought this ment just the other modifiers that change the -20 panilty (like from expert sniper feat) But it could very easly also talk about maintainig stealth. the words that diego said are missing here.as in: " effects (like maintaining stealth after attacking by rolling the hide check) that modify sniping (in the above it decide if the stealth is broken or not) apply to this full-round action".
the 'not breaking stelth after attack if stealth work" is a specific sniping effect. as mantioned, other attacks allways break stealth.
im sorry ofr making this complicated english is not my main languges. let me simplefy this.
normal attacks break stealth, sniping (spsicifly the stealth roll used after the attack) is a way to attack and not braek stealth, if you roll the stealth with the modifeirs(-20 or less depand) high enough you do not break stealth even if you attack.
master sniper uses the sniping rules - if you make the stealth check you didn't break stealth. that mean the attacks that SHOULD NORMALY been seen are not and so they can become sneak attack
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now lets look at master sniper change to the normal sniping:
And where it say you are sniping? Not in the benefits section, and that define how the feat work..
RAI vs RAW.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
So what we get? Sniping is a standard attack that allow you to hide as part of the attack action.
Master Sniper (Combat)
Source Dirty Tactics Toolbox pg. 11
Your sniping is quick enough that you can fire a small volley unnoticed.Prerequisites: Expert Sniper, Rapid Shot, Stealth 6 ranks.
Benefit: While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.
Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.
Nothing about "maintaining your obscured location", only "remain hidden". As written the target know perfectly from where the missile attack has been made and you are detected after the first attack, simply you are able to hide again after the second attack.
I agree that almost certainly the intention was to allow to make two attacks whiles sniping, but the guy that wrote the feat did a bad job.
The fun part is that after a full attack you can move 5', and if you are in concealing terrain that is enough to hide again, without a penalty.
So the main benefit of sniping is that you "maintain your obscured location", i.e. the enemy don't know the square from which you attacked.
The whole set of the stealth rule is full of holes, so they require a lot of GM/player agreement on how they work.
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(i automaticly asume that master sniper is used while or like normal sniping and normal sniping rules apply where they fit.as the name implay, otherwise it's out of context all together)edit - now that i look, i actuly have a strong prof that master sniper is talking about the sniping action and relate to it's rules (beside the obvius rai\ spirit of th ewords \etc) - as it talks about "Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action".
i allways thought this ment just the other modifiers that change the -20 panilty (like from expert sniper feat) But it could very easly also talk about maintainig stealth. the words that diego said are missing here.
as in: " effects (like maintaining stealth after attacking by rolling the hide check) that modify sniping (in the above it decide if the stealth is broken or not) apply to this full-round action".the 'not breaking stelth after attack if stealth work" is a specific sniping effect. as mantioned, other attacks allways break stealth.
im sorry ofr making this complicated english is not my main languges. let me simplefy this.
normal attacks break stealth, sniping (spsicifly the stealth roll used after the attack) is a way to attack and not braek stealth, if you roll the stealth with the modifeirs(-20 or less depand) high enough you do not break stealth even if you attack.
master sniper uses the sniping rules - if you make the stealth check you didn't break stealth. that mean the attacks that SHOULD NORMALY been seen are not and so they can become sneak attack
You are adding text to the feat to make it work. Sorry, but if you have to do that, you get table variation as not everyone will agree on what need to be added.
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Implied.And where it say you are sniping?It is strongly implied in the 'Normal' section.
Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.If you're not sniping while using Master Sniper, then that normal text is irrelevant to the feat.
Diego, I'd honestly like to see how you run games, because the way you seem to absolutely scrutinise every single piece of rules text to find a way to say 'No, it doesn't work the way it says it does' honestly astounds me. It must be like being in a court room to even get half the rulebook to work.
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Implied.And where it say you are sniping?It is strongly implied in the 'Normal' section.
Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.If you're not sniping while using Master Sniper, then that normal text is irrelevant to the feat.
implaying?
you seem to overlook the main proof i used so let me be clear, from master sniper faet:
"Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action."
it doesn't say only modifeirs that effect sniping it say effects.
since effect that modify sniping should by all mean include the MAIN effect that modify sniping - maintaing cover (as it's the Woole g!+-d+&n reason FOR sniping).
so the EFFECT that modify sniping and allow you to maintain cover is also "APPLY TO THIS FULL ROUND ACTION".
this is not implying its black and white text,how more clear do you need it to say that it works like sniping ?
you snipe you roll stealth and if you sucseed the stealth roll you gain the efect of not braeking cover. you 'master snipe" for a full round, you sucseed the stelth roll you gain the same effect.
or are you saying maintaining cover is not an efect that modify the sniping?
and again the RULE taht say atacking break cover also say that it doesn't apply to sniping. in snping it's wather or not the stealth check afte rthe attack worked that decide if you break cover. since the master sniper have the SAME stealth with the same panilty for sniping "to remain hiden" (that -20 or are u saying that since its not sniping there is no panilty? cause the feat say there is, then how do you work around that? you take a -20 to remain hidden but yo uare not hidden so why remain?)
if master sniper is NOT sniping why is there a panilty in the stealth check after the attcks? because LIKE sniping the attacks use the same rule of not breaking cover unles the stealth check fail.
you can't go and apply a rule that specifly say it deosn't apply in sniping when the feat is using sniping rules. it uses sniping panilty to remain hidden, it uses sniping modifying effects and you know what? ill even use the unholy action of Quoting the flavor text in this, cause its so clear "Your sniping is quick enough that you can fire a small volley unnoticed."
oh wow sniping & more then one shot and still "unnoticed"!
so if you say that master sniper is not using sniping rules(and the basic sniping rule mean you don't break cover unelss you fail the stealth check) how do you explain the sniping panilty and modifiying effects being used?
if the stealth check after the 2nd attack is not to remain hidden why would it give a panilty? it should be a normal check with no panilty by your way. and if the panilty is to remain hidden that mean you never broken stealth in the 1st place. ( not to mantion all the difrent 'snip' words used in the text 5 that i count)
oh and one last thing if this is not using sniping rules why is the last line say:
"Normal: You can fire only once when sniping. "?
from this it mean that this feat allow you to fire more then once while sniping...oh and lets remmber what rule doesn't apply to sniping? oh YES breaking stealth by attaacking!
so yea. the 1st shot doesnt break stealth since the rule that say that attacking break stealth doesnt work while sniping (unless the hide check fail). so AFTER the 1st shot ur still didn't break stealth and can take the 2nd shot still unnoticed and only after the hide check to remain hidden(kinda sound like maintaining cover but what do i know about english?)you ether break your stealth or not
you said master sniepr doesn't have the phrase "maintain cover" like sniping have . i say "remain hidden" mean the same thing. prove me wrong.
here is a trick question to y'all
If i succeed a stealth check with a panilty to remain hiddden what does it mean?
A: that i was hiding then had been seen and now i was able to go back into hiding
or
B: that i was hiding the whole time and never broke cover no matter what i did?
english man, do you speak it?