Alternate title - Clerical Error
First off - I don't think any of you come here, but if anyone at my table does see this post, don't read it, it contains semi-spoilers (mostly just things you'll fight). Yes, I'm Monty.
A player at my table has asked me for some help with choosing a direction for his cleric. I'm at a bit of a loss at this point in helping him as, while I can throw battle cleric at him all day, he doesn't seem interested in the type of cleric I am familiar with. I'm not really trying to force him into a role, he just falls outside of my specializations, and I'm trying to help him make him feel like his character is at least useful.
Party/Campaign information
Party Composition:
Cleric of Sheylyn - Wields a Glaive, but doesn't know what he wants to do
Kensai Magus - Dex based melee - should be mildly optimized
Zen Archer Unchained Monk - Yes, I'm aware
Samurai - GMPC that is currently their level, I included him so that he could just soak up damage in the beginning in case of crits or improper encounter design on my end, will be leaving the party soon and they already think he's weighing them down in combat a bit
Arcane Trickster? - I'm not entirely certain if he'll be playing this, but this player hasn't joined yet. Might actually just be a wizard functioning as one. Might decide to do something else
Fighter? - Another player that hasn't joined yet, not certain when he'll be joining as he's having some personal problems. A frontline Dwarf. Presumably using a hammer. I'd like to convince him to do a class other than fighter, but that's difficult. Maybe someone could suggest something for this as well, possibly one of the AWT options from the Weapon Master's book. has optimization issues and once had a fighter that gained power attack at level 11 as he was attempting to do a dual-wield sword/pistol fighter that... didn't pan out well.
Right now the party is currently 3rd level. They've been dealing with mostly goblins, have fought a couple demons, gone through a cemetery/mausoleum filled with undead, and will (around 6th level) probably be fighting an aboleth.
I've been using the demons as fights at the end of goblin encampments (assuming they go the direction I think they will), and they shouldn't be appearing much after the aboleth fight, though they may return around 12-14th level depending on their decisions.
Undead will not be very common for them to run into, though I may end up throwing them in as minions when it makes sense. They'll also be common in the 8th or 9th-12th level, with the occasional, boss.
Oh, and one of the players really wants to fight a dragon at some point, and he seems to want a big one.
From 6th level to 9th level they'll likely be fighting people, magical beasts, and animals. Have a non-combat encounter with a vampire planned, but I expect about a 75% chance it'll go to combat.
At some point (currently unplanned) fey.
It's also possible that around levels 8-12 (it depends when they go for it), they may end up in charge of a now 80 year abandoned Dwarven fortress and fight a lot of Drow.
I realize this doesn't seem to have too much of a theme, but for an incredibly long period, there were a lot of city based human encounters within a low magic setting inside my gaming group. I'm attempting to break that rut with something of a more fantastical sort. Heck, there's an extra-dimensional magic mart with a portal (free-standing door in the center of a plaze, run by a gnome and staffed by brownies) inside most major cities. That would've been unheard of before. Oh yeah, there's a literal magic-mart so uh... they should be able to buy basically any item.
Cleric's current statblock:
Aasimar Cleric 3
NG Medium outsider (Native)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+1 Dex, +4 armor, +1 natural armor)
HP 22
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +7
Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 glaive +7 (1d10+5/x3)
Domain: Luck, Good
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 16
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 16
Feats Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Glaive)
Skills Appraise +7, Diplomacy +11, Linguistics +6, Perception +13, Sense Motive +10, Spellcraft +5
Languages Common, Celestial, Infernal, Elven, Dwarven
SQ Daylight 1/day, Channel Energy 2d6
Spells written down:
0th- Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Stabilize
1st- Shield of faith, divine favor, CLW, Endure elements, air bubble, abundant ammo, murderous command, sun metal, magic weapon, true strike, protection from evil, ant haul, bless, bane, doom
2nd- Align Weapon, Resist energy, Shatter, CMW, Silence
Gear:
Only now do I realize that all he has written down is the +1 glaive, 2 pieces of jewelry that was picked up along the way, and a masterwork backpack. I know he at least has an amulet of natural armor +1 as well
What he's not interested in:
He does not particularly seem interested in summoning (too much bookkeeping), battle cleric (though he's currently working on getting guided hand - at my sort of suggestion as he'll be probably focusing a lot more on wisdom than keeping his str up and that will help him hit better at least), and seems to find most cleric party buffs underwhelming when compared to an arcane caster.
What he seems more interested in:
He does seem to want to focus on casting and a specific school of magic, though I'm not familiar enough with this side of cleric to give him a range of options. Usually when he's a caster he goes more for blasty things, and likely would've played oracle, but he had just finished playing one and didn't want to play oracle back to back.
I'm definitely willing to let him retrain, all paizo books are cool, 3rd party is something I'm relatively strict on, though I'm willing to let a few things slide depending on how I feel about it (case-by-case basis). Same with 3.5 (though this is likely to be denied).
In case you're wondering, stats were rolled. He might have the worst stat-block at the table.
Oh, and I'm running Ultimate Equipment pre-errata (amongst other things). Also I end up ignoring some FAQs. I think that's basically all that should matter.
Let me know if there are any questions I can answer. I appreciate the help.
Well, there's offensive cleric spells, spiritual weapon and searing light.
There's offensive control spells, blindness/deafness, hold person, command.
Caster cleric's I'm unfamiliar with as well since I find them boring.
The clerics buffs are strong and short, while arcane are long lasting and has haste, so it's easy to see why you'd think the cleric's buffing isn't as good as arcane. A strong choice is to worship a good that grants good hope as a 3rd or 4th level spell, it's a strong buff that stacks well with haste formation.
If not planing on a battle cleric I'd swap Str for DEX if possible, and not go for guided hand. It's not worth buffing an option that you're not actually going to use.
Bladed Brush would be a nice feat for him to get since he likes to use a glaive. Sure the weapon Finesse part is useless. But the ability of:
When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Not nessicery but is a cool flavorful feat for Shelyn worshipers.
I would recommend showing him the Evangelist Archetype and possibly letting him switch. Also consider letting him use the spells Shelyn lets clerics prepare...namely Good Hope (one of the best buffs in the game)
Letting him change to evangelist he can easily handle party buffing and his 16 STR will be more than enough to accomplish reach tatics. At 4 he could bump Dex to 14 and grab Combat reflexes at 5. He really doesn't need power attack if he does not want it. Since his standard will be spent buffing or doing something more meaningful than attacking. (The rest can manage typically) Getting in 1-2 AoO is always nice addition.
Well, there's offensive cleric spells, spiritual weapon and searing light.
There's offensive control spells, blindness/deafness, hold person, command.Caster cleric's I'm unfamiliar with as well since I find them boring.
Yeah, me too, plus their personal buffs are rather good, but oriented for battle priest of some sort.
The clerics buffs are strong and short, while arcane are long lasting and has haste, so it's easy to see why you'd think the cleric's buffing isn't as good as arcane. A strong choice is to worship a good that grants good hope as a 3rd or 4th level spell, it's a strong buff that stacks well with haste formation.
Didn't know about good hope, I'll definitely have to show him the variant spellcasting section. It's a shame the revelry subdomain (grants good hope) is tied to two empyreal lords I've never heard of. Though that's really only in respect to that spell and the swapped in power extending the spell for free.
If not planing on a battle cleric I'd swap Str for DEX if possible, and not go for guided hand. It's not worth buffing an option that you're not actually going to use.
The only reason I suggested it to him was because he has no current direction, it gave him a goal to work towards and at least could make him feel like he can hit something with his stick if he wanted to just do something.
Bladed Brush would be a nice feat for him to get since he likes to use a glaive. Sure the weapon Finesse part is useless. But the ability of:
Not nessicery but is a cool flavorful feat for Shelyn worshipers.When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Definitely see the usefulness of being able to lose the reach property, they've actually been fighting in pretty cramped places. Funnily enough I forgot he was using a reach weapon and 5 footed an archer into his threatened area. Not sure how he'd feel about the feat, but I'll show it to him.
I would recommend showing him the Evangelist Archetype and possibly letting him switch. Also consider letting him use the spells Shelyn lets clerics prepare...namely Good Hope (one of the best buffs in the game)Letting him change to evangelist he can easily handle party buffing and his 16 STR will be more than enough to accomplish reach tatics. At 4 he could bump Dex to 14 and grab Combat reflexes at 5. He really doesn't need power attack if he does not want it. Since his standard will be spent buffing or doing something more meaningful than attacking. (The rest can manage typically) Getting in 1-2 AoO is always nice addition.
I forgot about that archetype, as it's certainly not for every cleric. Although it may be just the kind of thing he's looking for. He's actually concerned about not being able to hit with Power Attack as is. He's had a lot of problems juggling it on 3/4 progression classes.
heroism domain on the evangelist archetype makes for a very strong turn 1 later on, swift mass heroism, move start bardic performance, standard any spell. Also really helps you become a beatstick cause you're buffed up too.
But this is getting into combat cleric.
heroism domain on the evangelist archetype makes for a very strong turn 1 later on, swift mass heroism, move start bardic performance, standard any spell. Also really helps you become a beatstick cause you're buffed up too.
But this is getting into combat cleric.
Sheylyn is rather important to the cleric. Definitely a good combo though. I'd totally use it.
Bladed Brush would be a nice feat for him to get since he likes to use a glaive. Sure the weapon Finesse part is useless. But the ability of:
Not nessicery but is a cool flavorful feat for Shelyn worshipers.When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Definitely see the usefulness of being able to lose the reach property, they've actually been fighting in pretty cramped places. Funnily enough I forgot he was using a reach weapon and 5 footed an archer into his threatened area. Not sure how he'd feel about the feat, but I'll show it to him.
I forgot about that archetype, as it's certainly not for every cleric. Although it may be just the kind of thing he's looking for. He's actually concerned about not being able to hit with Power Attack as is. He's had a lot of problems juggling it on 3/4 progression classes.
I would recommend showing him the Evangelist Archetype and possibly letting him switch. Also consider letting him use the spells Shelyn lets clerics prepare...namely Good Hope (one of the best buffs in the game)Letting him change to evangelist he can easily handle party buffing and his 16 STR will be more than enough to accomplish reach tatics. At 4 he could bump Dex to 14 and grab Combat reflexes at 5. He really doesn't need power attack if he does not want it. Since his standard will be spent buffing or doing something more meaningful than attacking. (The rest can manage typically) Getting in 1-2 AoO is always nice addition.
Well if he goes the route I am talking he may not need PA since damage is not his "Main" focus. He would be able to hit with it when you count +3 str mod, Bardic Performance, Good Hope (if you allow Unique Spell rules), Divine Favor/power. He will have no trouble hitting.
There is a Magda Luckbender here on the forums that for years advocated for Evangelist Reach clerics and determined 15 STR is more than enough to pull off reach tactics on a evangelist Cleric. You might be able to google fu the advice forums for some of those posts that talk about it.
Sheylyn is rather important to the cleric. Definitely a good combo though. I'd totally use it.heroism domain on the evangelist archetype makes for a very strong turn 1 later on, swift mass heroism, move start bardic performance, standard any spell. Also really helps you become a beatstick cause you're buffed up too.
But this is getting into combat cleric.
Yes Heroism is amazing action economy. I too love Shelyn as a deity and was my last Divine characters Deity. I worshiped her even tho I played an oracle. Basically held to the Paladin Code and was all about the power of Friendship and Love. I loved the flavor and will probably play it again one day as I enjoyed it greatly.
There is always the classic hold person + coup de grace. Nonlethaly is an option. He certainly has the wisdom for it
Combat reflexes and a dex bump are a great idea for using his nice physical stats. A reach cleric still makes a great caster
Well, this all seemed like the direction he may have wanted to go, but he isn't interested in it. His reaction was basically "then why wouldn't I play a bard?"
If nothing else I've taken another look at evangelist.
Well, ask him, "Why do you want to play a cleric?" cause it kinda seems like he doesn't really WANT to play a cleric but just happens to be one, cause he doesn't seem to want to do most of what a cleric does.
But to answer his question
The ability to cast in heavier armor (via divine casting), being a 9th level caster, divine favor, still having channel energy, a domain (this opens up to having a full power druid pet, swift action enlarge persons, or mass heroism as a swift), and no skill points.
You play an evangelist instead of a bard because you want nine levels of spell casting.
That said, it is a good archetype but hardly necessary for a casty cleric. If your players are willing to coordinate tactically I would go with standard reach tactics, basically you position your cleric to where foes will have to take an attack of opportunity to get to you, cast a spell and then do your weapon damage on their turn. I'd drop lightning reflexes for combat reflexes (and even if I didn't want combat reflexes I wouldn't take lightning reflexes, ref saves are almost always just damage and the character has d8 hp, great con and is a freakin cleric, so damage is what they can deal with.)
That tactic works pretty great if your party works with you. If instead you take up your position, then they rush past you and engage the enemy it doesn't work so well. When done right though, your foes have to take a hit on the way in, don't get a full attack and are within a 5' step of your allies for their full attack.
As to the type of spell you can cast, typically the best use of casters is either the support role or the battlefield control role. Since the rest of the group looks like strikers, either would be useful and the best route might be trying to cover both bases, alternating back and forth as the situation deems necessary, this is hard to do though, and in any event you can usually only do one thing at a time. The good and luck domains speak of a support focus. Enchantment makes some pretty good control though, and it fits fairly well with Shelyn's portfolio, so focusing on enchantment spells could be good and might be more along the lines of what the player is thinking of. If that is the goal, I would trade out one domain (probably the Good domain, it is neat but I think there are better things do to with standard actions) for the Charm domain (or even better the Love Subdomain.)
Well, ask him, "Why do you want to play a cleric?" cause it kinda seems like he doesn't really WANT to play a cleric but just happens to be one, cause he doesn't seem to want to do most of what a cleric does.
And I quote, "I mean, he's kind of right. It was just the first thing that came to mind when they said they needed a healer."
But to answer his question
The ability to cast in heavier armor (via divine casting), being a 9th level caster, divine favor, still having channel energy, a domain (this opens up to having a full power druid pet, swift action enlarge persons, or mass heroism as a swift), and no skill points.
He said those were good points.
I'm currently talking to him about retraining and he's liking the idea more now.
Whelp, I think he's decided on going the evangelist direction now. Probably picking up combat reflexes as well as putting his fourth level increase to Dex.
Any suggestions for later feats for him?
And thanks for the help thus far, I'm trying to help the dude get to a point where he can just enjoy the cleric. And maybe try to get the rest of the table see clerics as more than a bandaid along the way.
If other players are seeing him as a dedicated band-aid, have him play a bard not a cleric. Although since evangelist does lose the spontaneous cure spells, it is a decent choice for learning this lesson too.
Clerics are a great class, but I believe every group needs to learn that they can play without them, that smart in-game tactics are better than just relying on a cleric to keep spending actions pumping hit points into you. Clerics (and character actually, but clerics are expected to do so) have better things to do with their precious actions than just spamming cures.
Most healing should be done out of combat, hopefully with a cheap wand of CLW. Sure having a few heal spells ready for emergencies to prevent death is important, but other than that, healing is not a job for when the fight is still going on. Use your spells to prevent damage by ending the fight quicker rather than just prolonging it.
Not having a cleric in the group at all (or at least one without a ton of cure spells on hand) is the best way for groups to learn this lesson in my opinion.
I agree, and I know that, and the cleric agrees and likes the idea of it. And the magus and the soon-to-be fighter should know that too, but may have forgotten it. I've also attempted to convince them to pick up a wand of CLW, but they haven't wanted to blow the money on it yet, or possibly at all, as most or all thought it'd be pointless with a cleric, and I didn't want to press the issue more than I already did. Even tried to goad them into buying it by specifically pointing out to them one that was for sale.
Heck, at the very beginning I even offered to just hand them a GMPC Life oracle for a heal/removal bot with spontaneous casting.
Another option would be to give him some debuff spells to look at. Then whenever he casts them keep track of how much damage they have mitigated with how many spell slots. IE: bestow curse on a str based monster. Every time it misses by 3 or less add how much damage he would have normally dealt. Every time it hits add another 3(4/5 two handed) damage. Then at the end of the session show HP mitigated vs HP that would have been healed with those slots. Can do it similarly with buff spells
Debuff
Lv1 Command
Lv2 Burst of Radiance, Silence/Sound Burst, Silence
Lv3 Bestow Curse, Dispel Magic
Buff
Lv1 Bless
Lv2 Protection from Alignment Communal, Aid
Lv3 Magic Vestment, Resist Energy Communal