Specifically, i'd like this question answered: "At 6th level, can an arsenal chaplain use one of his bonus combat feats to select AWT: Fighter's Finesse?"
For PFS it's currently too questionable. Anywhere else, you should probably ask your DM, but also assume that you can.
I don't see why not. Advanced Weapon Training the feat and it's options only care about having Weapon Training and having Fighter levels, which the Arsenal Chaplain satisfies. Unless explicitly disallowed in PFS and FAQ's change this, at present you have a green light as far as RAW is concerned.
I mean, the Arsenal Chaplain's weapon training doesn't allow swapping groups for AWT options
Actually, it does. This is why PFS has a rule saying the AChap can't use it. Unfortunately, the way they worded it also most likely bars the AChap from taking the feat, since it's on the same pages that got banned for the AChap. Last I heard, the PFS leadership is still trying to decide if they want to allow the AChap to take the feat.
But all of these restrictions are for PFS. For anything else, you'll just have to ask your DM.
I mean, the Arsenal Chaplain's weapon training doesn't allow swapping groups for AWT optionsActually, it does. This is why PFS has a rule saying the AChap can't use it. Unfortunately, the way they worded it also most likely bars the AChap from taking the feat, since it's on the same pages that got banned for the AChap.
Whoops, sorry, I removed that because I actually checked Arsenal Chaplain and I forgot it was just weapons with Weapon Focus! My bad.
I'm not sure I'm reading anything in the Arsenal Chaplain to allow it, though, which is really weird that they would do that. Was this something from the PFS team as a 'Just in case' ban?
Seriously, this seems exceptionally knee-jerk and like they didn't really read the ability. :/ Are Arsenal Chaplains the only class with Weapon Training given these same restrictions or does this affect every non-fighter class with Weapon Training?
They are looking into the feat at last I saw john post.
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Myrmidarch and Sohei are the only other archetypes with Weapon training that I know of, and they are allowed to use AWT. But they don't have the same problem that AChap has. AChap reaches a point where they almost certainly don't have any more sacred weapons in other weapon groups, so it becomes a false choice for them. In other words, they reach a point where they have absolutely no reason to not choose AWT.
But I'm not really sure this should be a concern. The fighter is only slightly better off in this regard as their many feats will be focused on only one or two weapons as well. And while they could benefit from weapons in other groups, this would almost never happen in reality, as they will almost ever only use one or two types of weapons.
Myrmidarch and Sohei are the only other archetypes with Weapon training that I know of, and they are allowed to use AWT. But they don't have the same problem that AChap has. AChap reaches a point where they almost certainly don't have any more sacred weapons in other weapon groups, so it becomes a false choice for them. In other words, they reach a point where they have absolutely no reason to not choose AWT.
But I'm not really sure this should be a concern. The fighter is only slightly better off in this regard as their many feats will be focused on only one or two weapons as well. And while they could benefit from weapons in other groups, this would almost never happen in reality, as they will almost ever only use one or two types of weapons.
Exactly regardless of what anyone says its a false choice for almost every class. Yes fighter and the others can use other weapons without a feat but i would be shocked to find out there were a plethora of fighters post AWT who have access to the material and are still taking more than one other weapon group.
Thanks for the info!
I'm not sure if this adds anything to the discussion, but I remember being told the Two-Handed Fighter archetype can take AWT options instead of extra groups, because he gains the groups as normal, but the bonuses only apply for certain weapons:
THF:
Sounds awfully similar to:
AChap:
I can see what you're saying about "false choices", though if THF works by RAW I cant see why AChap would work any differently (outside of special PFS rules). It's pretty much a no-brainer to pick AWT options if you're content you have WT in all the groups you're likely to need, but that goes for any character. So provided this isn't for PFS I dont imagine my table will have any problems with it.
It looks like only 4 weapon groups don't contain at least one weapon that can be used two handed: bows, crossbows, natural and siege.
But I'm not really sure this should be a concern. The fighter is only slightly better off in this regard as their many feats will be focused on only one or two weapons as well. And while they could benefit from weapons in other groups, this would almost never happen in reality, as they will almost ever only use one or two types of weapons.
Okay, you had me completely lost at first, but I've Re-read the class feature, and I'm beginning to see where this discrepancy is coming from. It does just say 'you get weapon training as the fighter class feature', full stop. So that's how they're getting weapon groups. Now you're making sense.
full stop.
Well technically comma, but yes, that's pretty much the gist of it :)
But I'm not really sure this should be a concern. The fighter is only slightly better off in this regard as their many feats will be focused on only one or two weapons as well. And while they could benefit from weapons in other groups, this would almost never happen in reality, as they will almost ever only use one or two types of weapons.Okay, you had me completely lost at first, but I've Re-read the class feature, and I'm beginning to see where this discrepancy is coming from. It does just say 'you get weapon training as the fighter class feature', full stop. So that's how they're getting weapon groups. Now you're making sense.
Yep which is why they can't take the AWT as a replacement in PFS, John felt that it was a false choice because they have to take weapon focus again to have another weapon so they would all take AWT.
Exactly regardless of what anyone says its a false choice for almost every class. Yes fighter and the others can use other weapons without a feat but i would be shocked to find out there were a plethora of fighters post AWT who have access to the material and are still taking more than one other weapon group.Myrmidarch and Sohei are the only other archetypes with Weapon training that I know of, and they are allowed to use AWT. But they don't have the same problem that AChap has. AChap reaches a point where they almost certainly don't have any more sacred weapons in other weapon groups, so it becomes a false choice for them. In other words, they reach a point where they have absolutely no reason to not choose AWT.
But I'm not really sure this should be a concern. The fighter is only slightly better off in this regard as their many feats will be focused on only one or two weapons as well. And while they could benefit from weapons in other groups, this would almost never happen in reality, as they will almost ever only use one or two types of weapons.
I'd be shocked if there were many fighters who picked/knew what their 3rd and 4th choices were pre AWT.
lv5 the weapon I use. lv9... I guess bows? make the backup bow slightly better? Nothing else to use it on. lv13....... I really don't care, I'm never using this option anyway. lv17..... you're still making me choose which weapon with 3 levels left gets a +1 to it? Seriously?So yeah. The reason AWT were made and loved by everyone is that the new groups were already a false choice so they were a false feature. (and one that scaled negatively rather than positively)
This works very similar to the THW fighter.
"Weapon Training (Ex)
As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons. "
Same here
"Weapon Training (Ex)
As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee(sacred bonded) weapons. "
So both of them get new groups at lv 5, 9, 13, and 17 like normal. Just they only use a subset of those groups.
So officially the WP can swap out new groups for AWT and can qualify for the feat using it's fighter feats.
PFS altered the rule for them so that WP can't swap out new groups nor can it use the feat. There was a petition to allow the feat to be legal, we had word from John that it was a good proposition, but no word yet if they've talked about it at all yet.