Below is the Benefits part of Ascetic Style.
Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
Let's say the Chosen weapon is a Sai. I know that if I use the Sai with Elemental Fist, I will get a d6 of elemental damage added to the weapon damage.
What I don't understand is the part I bolded, Effects. 1. What are considered Effects?
Would a Monk Robe's increased unarmed attack be under these Effects?
There are other Monk items that answer the question simply but the Robe isn't so obvious.
@ngc7293: Is your character an actual Monk, or a different class? if Monk, core or unchained? On a non-monk, you would be able to use either the regular base damage (1d4 for medium), or the damage of a 5th level Monk (1d8 for medium) as the base damage. For a more detailed answer, I need to know your character's class(es).
Effects part is an error using the misunderstood "effects" language of Feral Combat Training. The author has said he didn't realize he used the old wording until published. So it means what the current FCT says and that is basically feats and class abilities.
This is completely wrong. In order:
To my knowledge, the only "misunderstanding" about FCT was whether the scaling damage works with it (which was confirmed by FAQ), and that some idiots literally made up their own wording to make it work as a virtual size increase instead of working like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon.The FCT erratum (as part of the Ultimate Combat errata) was releast a mere three month before the printing of WHM, so it's very likely that at the time of writing, there was no "old version" of FCT.
What the author intended is completely irrelevant, the feat is as it is printed. [smaller]The PDT overrules explicit author intend more than once, proving this.[smaller]
Also, the author has released different, mutually exclusive statements (riddled with wrong statements) about what the original intend was supposed to be, so we can't actually say what the original intend really was.
Last but not least, you contradict yourself because "what the current FCT says" and "feats and class abilities" are two very different things.
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To my knowledge, the only "misunderstanding" about FCT was whether the scaling damage works with it (which was confirmed by FAQ), and that some idiots literally made up their own wording to make it work as a virtual size increase instead of working like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon.
That FAQ didn't mean scaling damage bumps to your natural weapons, so FCT got errata to fix the confusion. In other words, we lost "effects" because people incorrectly interpreted that to mean scaling damage bumps.
As for Ascetic, the author was aware of the errata and thought they used the same words, but didn't find out until after printing.
That FAQ didn't mean scaling damage bumps to your natural weapons, so FCT got errata to fix the confusion.
As for Ascetic, the author was aware of the errata and thought they used the same words, but didn't find out until after printing.
That's not what I read there. Indeed, contrary to what he says, his "what [he] wanted to write" is not "exactly what Feral Combat Training was changed to post errata."
As I said, "some idiots literally made up their own wording to make it work as a virtual size increase instead of working like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon." It never had even the slightest base in reality anyway, because the Monk's class feature doesn't refer the step/size system at all.
They could easily have modified that FAQ to clear that up, if they felt it was necessary. I seriously doubt that was an actual misunderstanding, it was a failed attempt at munchkinery. Wishful thinking, if you will.
At least that's what I honestly believe, I wasn't yet in the community at that time.
I think that is what he is meaning James. If my monk unarmed damage is 1d6 and I have 1d4 claws with it i can use the 1d6 but if I have a 1d8 claw it doesn't get bigger correct?
@ngc7293: Is your character an actual Monk, or a different class? if Monk, core or unchained? On a non-monk, you would be able to use either the regular base damage (1d4 for medium), or the damage of a 5th level Monk (1d8 for medium) as the base damage. For a more detailed answer, I need to know your character's class(es).
It's an Unchained monk but not for a game. Maybe when our current game is over...
I had the impression if a regular old monk can use magic items with his unarmed strike ( Monk robes, Body Wraps, Amulet), then I would be able to apply the same magic items to a Weapon the Monk is using.
I suppose I don't really need to ask a question as a monk can use weapons in a flurry. But Ascetic Style as you know applies certain weapons to all the monk's abilities that uses Unarmed Strike.
So that was why I wondered if the Monk Robe could be used with one of the weapons in the Ascetic style Monk group. I used the Sai as an example.
A 10th level monk with Monk Robes would have Unarmed Strike 5 levels higher (2d6). I think the Sai is a d4 weapon and I think it would then take on the damage of the Unarmed strike.
Do I have that right?
Yes Talonhawke
Now if we only knew if Ascetic style works with Monk(weapon keyword) weapons or monk weapon group questions all my other questions would be answered.
Bump.
I didn't quite ask it in the OP but I asked it later but it was ignored.
Maybe it's obvious.
Is it perfectly fine to use the Monk robe with the Ascetic Style feats?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I seem to recall it being added to HeroLab.
The Ascetic Strike feat was not increasing effect with monk robes.
They have a direct line to Paizo, so often it works as Paizo intends (See "based on consultation with Paizo" in the release notes.)
If you ask a specific question, I can tell you how HL does it. It might be an "Ask your GM" question.
If for a monk maybe take "Unarmed Strike" as your chosen weapon? That way the prerequisite "Weapon Focus" feat will be Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and then applies to all Monk weapons at 5th level.
Thanks,
I think this will probably work for me. I still want my Unchained Monk to use a sword before 5th level, but the Unchained Monk is proficient with all Monk weapons. I wouldn't be stuck with that Fighter's Monk group that leaves out some Monk weapons. From levels 1-4 There is only Stunning Fist and I probably won't be using that with the sword (but I could hold the sword one handed to punch to try to do a stunning fist).The planned KI power at 4th would be Barkskin.
The whole idea is to boost the damage of the sword as if I were to take Ascetic Strike.
I am thinking you are saying by taking Unarmed Strike as the Chosen Weapon, this makes it okay with Monk's Robe and still boosts the Damage on the wielded sword, right?
I just wanted say for my build idea the Unarmed Strike as the Chosen Weapon won't work. In order to take Ascetic style, I need Weapon Focus (In your example Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike) I will likely want to take it for the sword. I wouldn't want to take it twice.
Though your example works, I would have to ask in the Advice section if I still wanted to take say the Temple Sword because it isn't offered on the Ascetic style list.
But that doesn't answer my question.
Okay, I'm good with this.
Now what about the feat (ascetic style) working with the magic item (monk robes)?
James, no offense, but I have already said what it is. It's an Unchained monk that uses Ascetic style. I think the Monk Robe is 13k gold.
You should be able to just throw something together.
If you are not familiar with Ascetic Style, you need weapon Focus in a weapon. Toastedambhibian says to take Unarmed Strike as the Chosen weapon and then the Unchained Monk can use any Monk weapon including the Temple sword.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm very familiar with everything in this thread.
I wanted something like "try 10th level oracle ascetic mystery with martial disciple using a brass knuckles with weapon focus and the three ascetic feats and a monk robe."
I tried my suggestion.
Without robes:
1d8 Brass Knuckles | 1d10 Unarmed Strike
With robes:
1d10 Brass Knuckles | 2d6 Unarmed Strike
I didn't quite ask it in the OP but I asked it later but it was ignored.
Maybe it's obvious.
Is it perfectly fine to use the Monk robe with the Ascetic Style feats?
Apologies for the late reply, I was busy the last couple of days.
As written, Ascetic Style works like this for a Monk:
Monk class features that now work with the weapon:
● Stunning Fist
● Ki Pool's DR penetration
● The scaling damage (used instead of the weapon's base damage)
● Dealing full strength on off hand attacks (almost never relevant).
Other things that now work with the weapon:
● Feats that enhance US, e.g. Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
● Feats that have IUS as a prereq, e.g. Hex Striker
● Traits that enhance US, e.g. Bullied
● Items that enhance US, e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fist (multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack, but other magic weapon abilities can be stacked with them)
● Spells that enhance US, e.g. Magic Fang
Monk class features that do not work with Ascetic Style:
● The extra attack from Ki Pool
● Style Strikes
● Ki Blocker, One Touch, and Quivering Palm
● Flurry of Blows (only relevant for tri-point double-edged sword and urumi).
All of these are 'unlocked' by Ascetic Form, though.
Thing I'm not sure about:
● The ability to deal nonlethal damage without penalty (on one hand, that basically comes from the general rules for US, but on the other hand, it it explicitly mentioned in the Unarmed Strike class feature)
● Weapon Finesse
● Effects that only apply to natural attacks - the "is treated as (...) a natural weapon" line does make US better, but only indirectly.
Monk's Robe increases your US damage. Ascetic Style allows you to use your actual US damage instead of your weapon's base damage. So yeah, the robe does increase the damage you do with your Sai.
I wouldn't be stuck with that Fighter's Monk group that leaves out some Monk weapons.
The only weapons in the monk group that lack the monk special property are Tri-Point Double-Edged Sword (man is that a long name) and Urumi. You can use those with Ascetic Style, but you'd need proficiency first, and couldn't flurry with them before getting Ascetic Form at 5th level.
Note that while Ascetic Style aplies to all monk weapons at 5th level, Ascetic Form only ever works with the chosen weapon. Ascetic Form is the actual powerhouse of the feat chain (at least for unMonk), as it allows the unMonk to use the bonus Ki Pool attack, as well as Style Strikes, with th weapon. For that reason, you really want to select the actual weapon you're going to wear.
The Ascetic Strike feat was not increasing effect with monk robes.
Wait, they changed it to work? WTF? Apart from the fact that it's actually irrelevant for this discussion (because Ascetic Strike works differently than Ascetic Style), it shouldn't work. Ascetic Strike uses "the unarmed strike damage of a monk 4 levels lower than your character level" - that's not taken from an actual character, and thus you can't affect that (apart from the variable, i.e. your character level). Ascetic Style, on the other hand, uses your actual US damage. Also, this is only ever relevant on a Sohei (although as written, Monk's Robe does actually increase a Sohei's unarmed damage).
I'm very familiar with everything in this thread.
Apologies for saying otherwise.
Monk's Robe increases your US damage. Ascetic Style allows you to use your actual US damage instead of your weapon's base damage. So yeah, the robe does increase the damage you do with your Sai.
I am just glad I got it from two people that the robe will work with Ascetic Style.
Ascetic Form is the actual powerhouse of the feat chain (at least for unMonk), as it allows the unMonk to use the bonus Ki Pool attack, as well as Style Strikes, with th weapon. For that reason, you really want to select the actual weapon you're going to wear.
Hope was saying "Yea, use any Monk Weapon you want, (even the Temple Sword) and somehow the Ascetic feats will work it out, yea!"
But you can't listen to hope all the time. :)
Ascetic style requires Weapon Focus and mentions branching out to more weapons if you have weapon training (monk) aka fighter or are a 5th level monk.
Ascetic Form requires weapon focus with the chosen weapon and says nothing abut using other weapons.
My stance is that they are intended to work that way.
That's possible (althouth far from guaranteed), but it's rather clear that according to the RAW they don't. To quote myself: Ascetic Style's special section says you can use Ascetic Style with weapons other than the chosen weapon. Sadly, AForm and AStrike reference not 'any weapon used with Ascetic Style', but specifically "the chosen melee weapom" (for AForm) or "the chosen weapon" (for AStrike). You only ever chose one weapon, and that one has to be both melee and from the monk fighter weapon group.
It would work if AStyle's special line would allow the user to treat the other weapons as if they were the chosen weapon it, but it doesn't. It only makes an exception for AStyle, and neither AForm or AStrike even reference AStyle!By "Everyone there", you mean the two people in that thread?
instead of largely pointless nonsense that does nothing.
Even if it's only for AStyle, the special line is not useless. It allows the Monk to apply his US damage, DR penetration, and even stuff like Stunning Fist to backup weapons (e.g. shuriken).
Hope was saying "Yea, use any Monk Weapon you want, (even the Temple Sword) and somehow the Ascetic feats will work it out, yea!"
Well, "use any Monk Weapon you want" is still true, you just have to chose. I strongly suggest picking a non-light weapon by the way.
Hope was saying "Yea, use any Monk Weapon you want, (even the Temple Sword) and somehow the Ascetic feats will work it out, yea!"Well, "use any Monk Weapon you want" is still true, you just have to chose. I strongly suggest picking a non-light weapon by the way.
Well as I am reading this, there still seems to be some confusion. Which weapons are allowed for the Chosen Weapon.
I would love to have the Temple Sword for the Unchained Monk (he can still use it even before the feat of coarse), but for some reason that particular weapon is not on the Fighter's Monk Weapon Group list.
And from what I can tell, it is the ONLY monk weapon that isn't on the List.
NOW, I could probably clear this with the GM since this would be for a home game.
I have only recently read the other threads where you guys and others have talked about a similar subject (Improved Critical and Ascetic Style).
Though Toastedamphibian's idea sounds interesting, I just can't get the idea through my thick skull of needing two weapon focuses or how to use just one.
INSTEAD, I would just assume that the Temple sword is apart of the Fighter Monk Weapon group and I would be fine. The Temple sword would be the Chosen weapon.
Unless you guys come up with another wrinkle, you have answered my questions.
Thanks.
I would love to have the Temple Sword for the Unchained Monk (he can still use it even before the feat of coarse), but for some reason that particular weapon is not on the Fighter's Monk Weapon Group list.
Huh, look at that, it actually isn't. My bad! Yeah, either ask your GM, or use a different weapon. Nine-Section Whip is basically the same except with bludgeoning damage, and Sansetsukon and Seven-Branched Sword do even more damage, with the downside that you have to choose between using them for AoOs and using Deflect Arrows.
On a side note, the Knuckle Axe (and the Bich'wa, although that's from Paizo's 3.5 days) are also monk weapons not in the monk weapon group.
Though Toastedamphibian's idea sounds interesting, I just can't get the idea through my thick skull of needing two weapon focuses or how to use just one.
Unless you want to combine two fighting styles (e.g. Ascetic Style and Startoss Style), you only ever need one Weapon Focus feat. There are situations where having US as the chosen weapon is best, but it's not a sensible selection for a normal character.