Like it says. I'd put this under rules questions, but I already know the answer. Basically, a fellow player is trying to convince our DM that Magical Knack will give him ALL the benefits of two more levels of a casting class, rather than just upping the numeric benefits of spells he already knows. He essentially wants to take six levels of Ranger, one level of Sorcerer, and then take Magic Knack and Kobold Press' "Improved Caster Level" Feat to suddenly have 6 more levels worth of spells per day and spells known.
I've found some links were people answer this, but what's the most definitive way to tell someone that's not the way it works?
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I'd just go with "exactly how much do you think one trait should benefit your minmaxed munchkin character?"
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All the GM needs to say is, "No. That's final. Stop asking."
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Haladir is right.
The thing to remember is that the player is simply asking for cheese. It's not a matter of logic. It's a matter of convincing yourself that something else is correct, and then doing everything in your power to make sure your (erroneous) interpretation is the only one you'll accept.
You respond to willful ignorance by squelching it.
Does he think it will give him more hit points, too? Because if "caster level" meant "class level" it would. And if it doesn't then it doesn't give more spells.
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Caster level =/= Class level. The Spells class features specifies Class Levels, not Caster Levels. Caster Levels are primarily referenced for the effects of spells and for dispelling spells. If you pull out the rules, show where this is true, and they persist: drop the ultimatum. No one likes Min-Maxers who can't even do their homework. Imagine trying to even play after this disagreement. Toxic.
Yeah, I did most of that stuff. Unfortunately I think the GM is mislead on this one. I tried to point out one of the threads I found here to him to support "my" side. I can send him a link to this one as well.
I was hoping there was some sort of official statement somewhere that clarified "abilities that increase caster level do not grant additional spells." sort of thing.
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Just have everyone in your group take a level of sorcerer and gain 6 extra free levels of spellcasting, your GM will change his mind pretty quickly.
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Maybe point them to the actual definition of 'Caster Level'. Also available on page 208 of the CRB.
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Maybe point them to the actual definition of 'Caster Level'. Also available on page 208 of the CRB.
This. Also, if the DM doesn't know the rules enough to drop the hammer on this, you may be in for more problems...
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Yeah, I did most of that stuff. Unfortunately I think the GM is mislead on this one. I tried to point out one of the threads I found here to him to support "my" side. I can send him a link to this one as well.
I was hoping there was some sort of official statement somewhere that clarified "abilities that increase caster level do not grant additional spells." sort of thing.
You're not going to get an "official statement" because there is no need. The rules are already there, and they aren't ambiguous. "Caster level" is a defined game term, as is "class level" and "character level." The devs only make official clarifications if the rules are ambiguous. In this case, the rules aren't ambiguous. The player is willfully ignorant.
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Good news. The GM took one look at one of the links I sent from these boards discussing the issue and put the hammer down. Evidently the player left that part out when describing to the GM what how he expected to use the abilities in question, anyway.
Thanks everyone.
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Maybe point them to the actual definition of 'Caster Level'. Also available on page 208 of the CRB.
Yeah, but he'd read that already. The other player in question probably knows the rule book better than I do in most cases. If he didn't get the same answer I did when he read it, I didn't think point it out would help.
The other player used as support for his side that a previous GM had read it the same as him. I told him he was wrong, but he basically said his other GM's opinion was just as valid as mine.
Fortunately, the situation has now been rectified.
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Maybe point them to the actual definition of 'Caster Level'. Also available on page 208 of the CRB.
Yeah, but he'd read that already. The other player in question probably knows the rule book better than I do in most cases. If he didn't get the same answer I did when he read it, I didn't think point it out would help.
The other player used as support for his side that a previous GM had read it the same as him. I told him he was wrong, but he basically said his other GM's opinion was just as valid as mine.
Fortunately, the situation has now been rectified.
Huzzah! Hopefully the player in question will still be able to contribute with a character that won't go as planned. Side note: from the sound of it, they want to play some kind of gish. Have you suggested they take a look at the Magus class? If they want the "wilderness" vibe, still, you could even work with the GM to make a custom archetype that exchanges some Magus class features for Tracking and Favored Terrain. Maybe give up the ability to enchant your weapon for a Favored Enemy, or something along those lines.
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Side note: from the sound of it, they want to play some kind of gish. Have you suggested they take a look at the Magus class?
Funny you should mention that; this player loves the magus. He's playing one in another game, and has played at least one more in a past campaign.
In this case, the GM has some campaign-related limits on magic classes; I think he was just trying to find a way around the custom limits. The GM was very up front about the limits he was putting on magic, so I'm not sure why the player in question thought he could work around them with a questionable reading of the rules, but this guy is always trying to push the envelope on stuff like that. It's just how he rolls.
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Bloodrager?If someone wants more casting on his character, bloodrager is not likely to cut it.
But there is an archetype to make it a 6 level spell caster.
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A paizo archetype, or third party?
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Whoops. Was thinking of the enlightened bloodrager but thought medium was a 6 level caster.
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Whoops. Was thinking of the enlightened bloodrager but thought medium was a 6 level caster.
Probably thought that because the Medium is often a 6th level caster.
Archmage Arcana (Lesser, Su): Instead of your normal spells per day for your medium level, you use the spells per day from Table: Mesmerist.
The divine spirit is basically the same.