So I am playing in rise of the ruin lords and I have decided to give the skald a try. I intend on being a gnome. Our party however, doesn't have a designated rank. So I was wondering if it was at all possible to make a Skald tank, and what kind of feats, spells and abilities I should be looking at.
It really depends on what your expectations are.
1) Survivability. This is pretty good. You can use medium armor with a heavy shield for a decent AC. And you can take the Skald's Vigor feat to give yourself strong fast healing. And you can cast spells like mirror image and displacement for evading hits.
2) Threat generation. This isn't bad, but Pathfinder doesn't have a lot of obvious threat generation abilities. You will be able to do decent damage, while your song is making you an obvious buffing source for your allies. So, for dumb enemies you can get out in front, while intelligent enemies will want to kill you to end your buffs/healing.
It really depends on what your expectations are.
1) Survivability. This is pretty good. You can use medium armor with a heavy shield for a decent AC. And you can take the Skald's Vigor feat to give yourself strong fast healing. And you can cast spells like mirror image and displacement for evading hits.
2) Threat generation. This isn't bad, but Pathfinder doesn't have a lot of obvious threat generation abilities. You will be able to do decent damage, while your song is making you an obvious buffing source for your allies. So, for dumb enemies you can get out in front, while intelligent enemies will want to kill you to end your buffs/healing.
yeah that's pretty much what I want. The ability take a punch and still properly buff my party and do decent damage. I hadn't seen that feat yet, that definitely looks like something with picking up.
I'd go for Skald's Vigor above all else if tanking is your focus. It's really good. Also be aware of Greater Skald's Vigor for level 11, if you ever get that far.
Being a small character, you will want to pick up the Bladed Dash spell at level 4 to help get you into good positions. Hopefully others can chime in with some good options.
Who are your other party members? You might want to use Wyrm Singer, Urban Skald, or War Painter depending upon your composition.
Who are your other party members? You might want to use Wyrm Singer, Urban Skald, or War Painter depending upon your composition.
so far we have a rogue and a white haired witch and a 4th who is probably running a kineticist
Most of those archetypes don't work with your Skalds Vigor. I'd probably go with basic skald or maybe totemic. Depending on your DM, the enhancement bonuses provided by the bear totem may stack with skalds vigor. It's a questionable ruling though, so you may want to check first.
In that situation I'd consider Urban Skald, personally, since it gives a dexterity bonus without hindering spellcasting or skill checks. Everyone in the party can benefit from your ability that way, as no one turns down Reflex, Initiative, and AC upgrades.
If your focus is tanking, then why worry if you are buffing every member of your party. Those concerns are for if your focus is being the best support.
Skald's Vigor for the fast healing like already said. Also get the rage power that lets you intimidate an adjacent foe as a move action for 1d4+1/5DC over, which you can use to reduce their chance to hit. With being 3/4 BAB it'll take a long time to get your 2nd attack anyways. Also use spells like mirror image, shield, etc.
Depending on your DM, the enhancement bonuses provided by the bear totem may stack with skalds vigor. It's a questionable ruling though, so you may want to check first.
I had meant the bull focus totem here.
So I am playing in rise of the ruin lords and I have decided to give the skald a try. I intend on being a gnome. Our party however, doesn't have a designated rank. So I was wondering if it was at all possible to make a Skald tank, and what kind of feats, spells and abilities I should be looking at.
Gnome is a decent choice. They get Constitution and Charisma boosts, which is what you'll want, but the Strength penalty is going to hurt unless you try to go Dexterity-based (which isn't easy for you unless you multiclass or limit your melee options, i.e. Slashing/Fencing Grace or Dervish Dance). You'll also need to watch your carrying capacity, because Medium armor, random loot, and whatever weaponry you carry, is going to be weighing you down, even if it's reduced to accommodate your size (and therefore have less weight).
You'll only need a 16 Charisma to cast all of your spells, and presumably you'll focus on utility/buff spells. While Crowd Control will be important, you'll be too MAD to raise your Charisma to bump your Save DCs into the atmosphere. (Also, since you're only a 6/9 spellcaster, your save DCs will be more limited.) The rest you can sink into Constitution (you'll want at least 15), and Dexterity (14-16 if you can manage it).
As for feats, Skald's Vigor is a good idea, as well as the Improved version for your allies (which can help with aggro). Toughness can give you more hit points. I'd suggest Raging Vitality, but it's not considered the Rage class feature. It'd also dissipate since you can't maintain the performance by being unconscious. Consider working towards Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace. The difference between the two are weapon selections (and number of feats required), as well as playstyles. Dervish Dance lets you cast spells, but can't use a shield. Conversely, Slashing Grace lets you use a Buckler for AC, but can't cast spells. In my opinion, Dervish Dance will be better, because it's less feats, and your spellcasting will be way more important than a +1-+6 to AC (which can be replicated by simply casting a Shield spell, either through a Wand or Spell Kenning).
With a Strength Penalty, look into using Mithril/Darkwood/Darkleaf Cloth equipment, as that will cut their weight by half (after you already reduce it for being small-sized).
I don't know if going weapon finesse is worth it. Your dexterity would only be 2 points higher than your strength. And carrying capacity is easy with just a little strength because small size equipment is half the weight of regular.
We are doing 20 Point Buy so for stats. I was thinking
Str: 14 (12 after racials)
Dex: 12
Con: 14 (16 after racials)
Int: 12
Wis: 9
Cha: 15 (17 after Racials)
Thoughts?
See if you can't get that Strength to 15, you want that 13 Strength for Power Attack and you don't really need more than 16 Charisma as a Skald.
If he's going sword and shield with medium BAB, then power attack may not be a big priority. But, you may want to consider going with a reach build, for tanking.
If I were making this character, I'd probably go with a race adjusted array of:
STR: 14 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 16
But what you have now is fine.
I'm looking at slashing grace and I don't see any reason why a Skald couldn't use it and cast spells. Is there something I'm missing on that one?
You can do it, but it's a lot of feats to come on line. Assuming you drop the skalds vigor line and go dex based, you'll need 2 other feats to get slashing grace. That would be a wait till level 5 for a gnome skald. Your off hand would need to be "free" but you can still accomplish that with a buckler.
I'm looking at slashing grace and I don't see any reason why a Skald couldn't use it and cast spells. Is there something I'm missing on that one?
Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
If you're using a hand to cast a spell while wielding your selected weapon, that hand is occupied fulfilling somatic components, and therefore you invalidate gaining the benefits of Slashing Grace.
Whereas Dervish Dance (which only takes two feats, and not 3 like Slashing Grace does), has this to say:
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
So, you're forgoing a Buckler to be able to cast Spells.
As far as I know a Skald only uses a verbal component to cast spells and do not require the use of their hands in spell casting. But it seems to feat intensive to get there anyway do I will probably stay STR based for my damage.
Path of glory and lesser celestial for a tank skald. You'll be placed in a spot so make it work for you.
Your weapon should be cruel furious and blood song. Likely in that order.
Use blistering invective. Max out intimidate. Now they are shaken? Sickened and on fire. That's -4 to hit and -2 To damage and -4 to saves. Where as you (at level 4) will be healing about 7 a round.
That's your tank. Less damage on you and constantly healing damage to you.
wow I really like the sounds of all that! Effective and fun. Thanks!
As far as I know a Skald only uses a verbal component to cast spells and do not require the use of their hands in spell casting. But it seems to feat intensive to get there anyway do I will probably stay STR based for my damage.
It's just two feats for Dervish Dance. Three for Slashing Grace (which is weaker in my opinion), and with Perform (dance) being a requirement, it synergizes with Bardic Performances that actually require Perform checks. It can come online as early as 3rd level (or 2nd level if you decide to take a Fighter dip, for example).
Of course, I do forget that Skald's boost Strength and Constitution, and not Dexterity, but remember that less Dexterity means less tankiness. Your Raging Song also reduces your AC, which means you're more likely to be hit, and tanks usually want to reduce their ability to get hit as much as possible.
**EDIT** Reviewing the relevant Skald spells text:
Every skald spell has a verbal component—these verbal components can take the form of song, recitation, or even nonverbal music like percussion. To learn or cast a spell, a skald must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC against a skald's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the skald's Charisma modifier.
The bolded part implies that every single spell you cast, even if it doesn't have verbal components (normally), it requires verbal components.
Obviously, exceptions like Silent Spell bypass this requirement, but this means if a spell only has Somatic components (which is rare), the Skald tacks on Verbal components that he has to fulfill as well (which, again, only apply if he doesn't do something like a Silent Spell). The only nice thing is that it doesn't necessarily require him to speak to fulfill, since instruments can fulfill said verbal component.
As far as I know a Skald only uses a verbal component to cast spells and do not require the use of their hands in spell casting. But it seems to feat intensive to get there anyway do I will probably stay STR based for my damage.It's just two feats for Dervish Dance. Three for Slashing Grace (which is weaker in my opinion), and with Perform (dance) being a requirement, it synergizes with Bardic Performances that actually require Perform checks. It can come online as early as 3rd level (or 2nd level if you decide to take a Fighter dip, for example).
Of course, I do forget that Skald's boost Strength and Constitution, and not Dexterity, but remember that less Dexterity means less tankiness. Your Raging Song also reduces your AC, which means you're more likely to be hit, and tanks usually want to reduce their ability to get hit as much as possible.
**EDIT** Reviewing the relevant Skald spells text:
Every skald spell has a verbal component—these verbal components can take the form of song, recitation, or even nonverbal music like percussion. To learn or cast a spell, a skald must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC against a skald's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the skald's Charisma modifier.The bolded part implies that every single spell you cast, even if it doesn't have verbal components (normally), it requires verbal components.
Obviously, exceptions like Silent Spell bypass this requirement, but this means if a spell only has Somatic components (which is rare), the Skald tacks on Verbal components that he has to fulfill as well (which, again, only apply if he doesn't do something like a Silent Spell). The only nice thing is that it doesn't necessarily require him to speak to fulfill, since instruments can fulfill said verbal component.
Dood you're having an off day.
Skalds and bards can't use silent spell.
Skalds cast as...
Perhaps.
Either that, or I'm not completely familiar with every little rule in the game.
Personally, I prefer the latter concept.
As far as I know a Skald only uses a verbal component to cast spells and do not require the use of their hands in spell casting. But it seems to feat intensive to get there anyway do I will probably stay STR based for my damage.It's just two feats for Dervish Dance. Three for Slashing Grace (which is weaker in my opinion), and with Perform (dance) being a requirement, it synergizes with Bardic Performances that actually require Perform checks. It can come online as early as 3rd level (or 2nd level if you decide to take a Fighter dip, for example).
Of course, I do forget that Skald's boost Strength and Constitution, and not Dexterity, but remember that less Dexterity means less tankiness. Your Raging Song also reduces your AC, which means you're more likely to be hit, and tanks usually want to reduce their ability to get hit as much as possible.
**EDIT** Reviewing the relevant Skald spells text:
Every skald spell has a verbal component—these verbal components can take the form of song, recitation, or even nonverbal music like percussion. To learn or cast a spell, a skald must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC against a skald's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the skald's Charisma modifier.The bolded part implies that every single spell you cast, even if it doesn't have verbal components (normally), it requires verbal components.
Obviously, exceptions like Silent Spell bypass this requirement, but this means if a spell only has Somatic components (which is rare), the Skald tacks on Verbal components that he has to fulfill as well (which, again, only apply if he doesn't do something like a Silent Spell). The only nice thing is that it doesn't necessarily require him to speak to fulfill, since instruments can fulfill said verbal component.
Ah. I've never actually played a bard before so i always assumed that they didnt need their hands cause they were always occupied playing and instrument. So when I saw that line of text I assumed it meant "They only need a verbal component to cast spells". My bad.