When fighting more than one opponent, Kirin Path is a powerful ability when it comes to avoiding attacks simply by using an attack of opportunity to move out of the targeted square. How many attacks of opportunity can one use with Kirin Path? Is it one, or if you have combat reflexes, as many as you have available?
Kirin Path
Benefit: Whenever you make a Knowledge check to identify a creature, even when using Kirin Style, you can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, if the creature ends its turn within your threatened area, you can spend a use of your attacks of opportunity that round to move up to 5 feet times your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). You must end your move in a square threatened by the creature. This move does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
It looks like it's something that happens only once, when the creature ends its turn within your threatened area. If so then it's one AoO only.
Still, the Ki-rin style line rewards intelligence and since you have to start your move threatening the creature and end threatened by it I'd think this would be a minor concern most times.
I'm looking at a few other feats that allow multiple uses of AoO and the wording looks the same. Seems to indicate that more than one AoO can be used in a round.
"Bodyguard"
Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.
Prerequisite: Combat reflexes.
Benefit: When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally’s AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally’s attack roll with this attack.
No additional thoughts on the number of AoO can be used in a round with Kirin Path?
Bodyguard only lets you aid another a person once to increase their AC vs. a given attack. I.e. It triggers only once for a given event.
Uses per round aren't the question, uses per triggering event are the issue.
When fighting more than one opponent, Kirin Path is a powerful ability when it comes to avoiding attacks simply by using an attack of opportunity to move out of the targeted square. How many attacks of opportunity can one use with Kirin Path? Is it one, or if you have combat reflexes, as many as you have available?
Kirin Path
Benefit: Whenever you make a Knowledge check to identify a creature, even when using Kirin Style, you can take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent you from doing so. While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, if the creature ends its turn within your threatened area, you can spend a use of your attacks of opportunity that round to move up to 5 feet times your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). You must end your move in a square threatened by the creature. This move does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I would say once per creature.
Here's my thought (X is me, O is baddie, . is empty):
X......OOOO
O moves up
XO......OOO
I move around him
.OX.....OOO
Another O moves up
.OXO.....OO
I move around him
.O.OX....OO
Another O moves up
.O.OXO...O
Repeat as needed
There is no trigger event for Kirin Strike. It can just be used whenever, as long as the preconditions are met. The preconditions are "While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, if the creature ends its turn within your threatened area"
There is no trigger event for Kirin Strike. It can just be used whenever, as long as the preconditions are met. The preconditions are "While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, if the creature ends its turn within your threatened area"
Surely "end[ing] its turn within your threatened area" is the triggering event. Which suggests that it can only happen once per turn per creature (since each creature only has one turn to end), but can also happen once per turn per creature (because each creature has its own turn to end).
There is no question about whether Kirin has a trigger or whether conditions simply need to be met.
The creature ending his turn is not a trigger event. A triggering event, like say with a normal attack of opportunity, or bodyguard, or cut from the air, causes the triggered action interrupt the regular flow of the round in order to happen immediately after the trigger event. Kirin Path has no such trigger requirement because there is no requirement for the movement to happen when the identified target ends its turn.
The only requirement to use Kirin is that the conditions are met.
1. a target has been identified while using Kirin Style
2. the target ended its turn in the Kirin users threat range.
There is no question about whether Kirin has a trigger or whether conditions simply need to be met.
The creature ending his turn is not a trigger event. A triggering event, like say with a normal attack of opportunity, or bodyguard, or cut from the air, causes the triggered action interrupt the regular flow of the round in order to happen immediately after the trigger event. Kirin Path has no such trigger requirement because there is no requirement for the movement to happen when the identified target ends its turn.
The only requirement to use Kirin is that the conditions are met.
1. a target has been identified while using Kirin Style
2. the target ended its turn in the Kirin users threat range.
Reread it. It happens whenthe target ends its turn. In other words, immediately following the end.
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Orfamay has it right.
A triggering event, like say with a normal attack of opportunity, or bodyguard, or cut from the air, causes the triggered action interrupt the regular flow of the round in order to happen immediately after the trigger event. Kirin Path has no such trigger requirement because there is no requirement for the movement to happen when the identified target ends its turn.
You are almost never required to use one of those abilities after it is triggered. Just like you are never required to take an Attack of Opportunity if an enemy provokes.
How many attacks of opportunity can one use with Kirin Path? Is it one, or if you have combat reflexes, as many as you have available?
Each round, you can use one AoO per enemy - after that enemy ends its turn. If you have Combat Reflexes, you can use the ability on multiple enemies.
You can't use an AoO at anytime during the round after it is triggered. If you choose to use it, it must be immediately after the triggering event.
Did I miss something somewhere? Do the rules say that a character can perform an AoO any time in the round after the AoO is triggered? If yes, can you let me know where to look to confirm?
KingOfAnything not only are answering questions I'm not asking in my last posts, your answers have simply been wrong.
You said "Each round, you can use one AoO per enemy - after that enemy ends its turn. If you have Combat Reflexes, you can use the ability on multiple enemies."
You can use multiple AoO on individual targets. Look at trip and vicious stomp. One action can also provoke 2 AoO such as when casting a ranged touch spell.
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As to the original question:
I also get that you are stating that the move into the threatened square is a triggering event rather than a condition, and Orfamay concurs. Which means you are reading the line of text
"you can spend a use of your attacks of opportunity that round"
as
1. "you can spend one of that round's attacks of opportunity"
rather than
2. "you can spend a use of your attacks of opportunity in that round"
If 1. is the correct reading, then you are right, Kirin Path allows for one movement per enemy that ends its round in threat range. Anyone else have any idea if 1. or 2. is the correct reading of Kirin Path?
After looking at the implications of 2., and the way AoO act in other instances, I do agree that the reading in 1. is correct.
I really wish Paizo would consider using more exacting english when writing. It doesn't need to add more words and there are some really great editors out there to help.
I really wish Paizo would consider using more exacting english when writing.
<Shrug.> I wish more of the forum participants would read the rules in good faith.
One of the principles of statutory construction in the real world is that the words mean what they say. If you need to resort to some tortuous interpretation to make your argument, you're probably wrong.
Another principle is that the words are consistent in their meaning. Since we know how AoO in other contexts work, AoO should work the same in this context. In this specific example, we know that AoO's are generally made in response to a triggering event, so the question to ask first isn't "is this the first instance in the Pathfinder rules of an untriggered attack of opportunity?" but "what is the triggering event for this particular attack of opportunity?" The answer, I submit, is fairly clear. "If the creature ends its turn within your threatened area, you can spend a use of your attacks of opportunity." And, incidentally, the words mean what they say.
Another rule is that every word and phrase should be given effect. A lot of people like to disregard uncomfortable bits as "fluff," but even fluff is meaningful, and if nothing else illustrates the designers' intended use case. An interpretation that negates the fluff is therefore probably wrong.
These rules for legal interpretation were designed by and for judges and lawyers, but they apply equally well to game rules. (In fact, like game rules, laws are often badly written, either from incompetence on the part of the writer or deadline pressure, or miscommunication among the writing team, so you get all the same issues.) In either case, the important thing is to come up with a set of interpretations for rules that make sense in light of the rest of the system to which they are attached.
I did not read the rules in "bad faith." The implication is silly and insulting.
Option 1 in my post above is the more "tortured" interpretation of the rules. The entire sentence structure needs to be revamped to make it a clear statement. Option 2 is simply overpowered so it would not be the ruling I would make at a table.
The Kirin Path feat has very little use as it is interpreted in option 1 (a fun challenge to make it work), and feats were created to often give advantages that are exceptions to general rules, so the other question to ask is what additional value did the writer intend for this feat.
I did not read the rules in "bad faith."
Nevertheless, I stand by my writing.
I did not read the rules in "bad faith."Nevertheless, I stand by my writing.
Your final posts added nothing to the discussion. They were simply argumentative. You standing by them says much about you and why the gaming community is small. Next time try "Happy to discuss and that you see my point."
I trust you will be better in the future.
I'll never understand why people post questions on a help forum looking for clarification and then berate and argue with anyone that contributes a different interpretation than the one they're hoping to hear.
Next time, try "I don't think I agree, but thanks for the help."
I trust you will be better in the future.
I'll never understand why people post questions on a help forum looking for clarification and then berate and argue with anyone that contributes a different interpretation than the one they're hoping to hear.
Next time, try "I don't think I agree, but thanks for the help."
I trust you will be better in the future.
I agreed with the guy and got a comment about not reading rules in good faith. That was not a clarification. It served no purpose.
If you look earlier in the thread I explained my thinking and got a "reread it" comment. Those aren't well communicated discussion points, nor something that I would characterize as help, when the text clearly supports of different reading.
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There is no trigger event for Kirin Strike. It can just be used whenever, as long as the preconditions are met.
There is no question about whether Kirin has a trigger or whether conditions simply need to be met.
KingOfAnything not only are answering questions I'm not asking in my last posts, your answers have simply been wrong.
Bladelock, it took you awhile to think about what Orfamay, avr and I were saying to you and why we were reading it the way we were. It was difficult to figure out that you were reading "AoO that round" to mean "AoO anytime that round" rather than the more typical "AoO for that round." I didn't understand until you replied to my first post. You were not explaining your thinking, you were claiming your view as fact ("There is no question..."). I'm not surprised you were told to reread the feat and think about it more. That's exactly what you ended up doing in order to understand how we were reading the feat.
I don't think you read the rules in bad faith, but I do think you could improve at understanding opposing viewpoints and communicating disagreement.
I still think it reads more accurately as AoO anytime that round. My decision that it isn't RAI is that I looked at the full implications of what could be done with it in certain situation. In a vacuum I would still have come to my original conclusion.
The "reread it" and then "good faith" comment just sent this discussion down a different path. Toss those kind of statements out when the language is not 100% clear and there will be friction.