| Balkoth |
Yes, yes, grapple rules. So fun. I'm going off these charts which could be out of date and/or wrong:
Let's say Bob wants to grapple Chris. Both Bob and Chris has 9 CMB and 20 CMD. Both also have Improved Grapple.
Bob attempts to start a grapple. He has a 50% chance (11 vs 22) chance to grapple Chris. Say he succeeds.
It is now Chris's turn. Say he doesn't like Bob controlling the grapple. He attempts a CMB check against Bob's CMD and rolls a 9. He therefore fails. Which brings me to my first question:
Am I reading this correctly that breaking free of the grapple is the same DC as taking control of the grapple? I would think breaking free is easier but the check appears to be the same.
Okay, so, Chris failed to get free or failed to take control, whichever. Bob gets to go and he makes a check to maintain the grapple -- but this time he gets a +5 bonus. So 75% chance of success. Say Bob succeeds.
At this point, it seems that without needing to make any further checks Bob could simply pin Chris. In other words, it's easier to move from a Grapple to a Pin than it is to Grapple in the first place. Is this correct?
Anything else you think should be mentioned to someone trying to wrap his head around the grappling rules from the GM side?
| Yorien |
I'd say:
1-. If someone succeeds on the escape grapple check, he essentially choses (same as the choice you have when you maintain a grapple) what extra "action" he wants to take, be either "escape the grapple" or "take control of the grapple".
2-. Once a character in control of the grapple succeeds on a "maintain grapple" check, then that character can pick the "pin" extra action, so yes, is easier since the grappled character would have either failed the grapple check, or decided not to attempt it, granting the +5 circumstance to the grappler.
3-. Yes, grappled characters can cast spells requiring Somatic and Material components. Pinned characters no longer can.
Sammy T
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I would suggest not using links require downloads. Might get some more traction that way.
Am I reading this correctly that breaking free of the grapple is the same DC as taking control of the grapple?
Note that the Grappled condition imposes a -4 DEX penalty, so both people in the grapple would have CMDs of 18 (20 - 2 Dex Mod = 18). So it's slightly easier to escape (or progress the grapple) unless you're one of the archetypes with special grapple abilities.
okay, so, Chris failed to get free or failed to take control, whichever. Bob gets to go and he makes a check to maintain the grapple -- but this time he gets a +5 bonus. So 75% chance of success. Say Bob succeeds.
Slightly greater chance of success due to DEX penalty noted above.
At this point, it seems that without needing to make any further checks Bob could simply pin Chris. In other words, it's easier to move from a Grapple to a Pin than it is to Grapple in the first place. Is this correct?
Yes, because you're in control of the Grapple.
Yes, the chart is slightly out of date because you can cast a somatic spell with the grappled condition. If it's a creature good at grappling, good luck beating the Concentration DC.
| Balkoth |
Also, if you click on the "download" it just takes you to those images without, y'know, downloading anything.
So...if A and B are identical...it's easier for B to gain control of the grapple from A than it is for A to grapple B in the first place? 50% chance to grapple and then 60% to obtain control of the grapple? And 85% chance to pin?
Sammy T
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Well, they could theoretically trade controlling the grapple back and forth indefinitely until one failed a roll or, most likely, an outside force smooshes one of them (i.e. Fellow party members teeing off on a grappled target).
However, in actual play, most often the PCs and monsters who grapple have solid CMB/CMD and the grapple victim usually tries to get off a full attack before eating a pin (because they know they have a slim chance or reversing it)
| Scott Wilhelm |
breaking free of the grapple is the same DC as taking control of the grapple?
Yes.
At this point, it seems that without needing to make any further checks Bob could simply pin Chris. In other words, it's easier to move from a Grapple to a Pin than it is to Grapple in the first place. Is this correct?
Yes.
3-. Yes, grappled characters can cast spells requiring Somatic and Material components. Pinned characters no longer can.
The d20pfsrd website says you can't cast spells with Somatic components at all even while Grappled, not just Pinned, but I haven't been able to corroborate that in the Paizo Rules Archive or the FAQs.
Sammy T
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The d20pfsrd website says you can't cast spells with Somatic components at all even while Grappled, not just Pinned, but I haven't been able to corroborate that in the Paizo Rules Archive or the FAQs.
The PRD was updated with errata but the PFSRD was not. There was contradicting language in the game about whether or not you could cast a spell with somatic components while having the Grappled condition but that was fixed.
| Yorien |
Yorien wrote:3-. Yes, grappled characters can cast spells requiring Somatic and Material components. Pinned characters no longer can.The d20pfsrd website says you can't cast spells with Somatic components at all even while Grappled, not just Pinned, but I haven't been able to corroborate that in the Paizo Rules Archive or the FAQs.
D20PFSRD is a 3rd party site, use rules found there at will, but don't consider them official.
Years ago (talking about 2010) there was an incongruence in where the Magic section of the SRD had the statement preventing grappled characters from casting somatic components. Paizo addressed this already, and Devs confirmed at that time the grapple rules are the correct ones.
These are the official rules on grappled and pinned conditions (From Paizo's SRD); the Magic section already changed the concentration Rules to fit the ones found on the Conditions section:
While Grappled you can cast spells as long as you pass a concentration check, there's no text that limits what kind of spells can be cast.
While Pinned You cannot cast spells requiring somatic or matericl components. It specifically states that limitation.