Does Still Spell allow you to cast with a reduced or with no Concentration check if you are grappled? It seems that it SHOULD, but I don't see that it DOES.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Does Still Spell allow you to cast with a reduced or with no Concentration check if you are grappled? It seems that it SHOULD, but I don't see that it DOES.
Still Spell only makes it possible to cast spells in a grapple (and even then you must be able to have any components at hand... unless you also have Eschew Materials). You must still succeed at the Concentration check as normal. Without Still Spell, it is impossible to cast a spell with somatic components in a grapple. No check allowed.
Does Still Spell allow you to cast with a reduced or with no Concentration check if you are grappled? It seems that it SHOULD, but I don't see that it DOES.Still Spell only makes it possible to cast spells in a grapple (and even then you must be able to have any components at hand... unless you also have Eschew Materials). You must still succeed at the Concentration check as normal. Without Still Spell, it is impossible to cast a spell with somatic components in a grapple. No check allowed.
it's pretty clear from raw that it only takes one hand to cast a spell. The text does seem to indicate that although you can cast you need the components in hand.
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Without Still Spell, it is impossible to cast a spell with somatic components in a grapple. No check allowed.Perhaps you are thinking of 3.5's version of Grapple. Grapple under the Pathfinder's rule set is considerably less restrictive. As listed in the Grappled condition"
In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.
And while I do not believe the RAW directly state that Still Spell would negate the Concentration check listed above, I would strongly believe that it should, and would certainly rule it that way in my game.
Director of Game Design
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Still Spell is really only useful for situations where you do not have one hand to devote to spellcasting, such as when you are pinned. You can attempt to cast a spell when grappled, and you must make a concentration check to cast it (whether or not the spell has a Somatic component). Still spell is also handy for casters who intend to wield weapons or shields quite frequently.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Perhaps you are thinking of 3.5's version of Grapple. Grapple under the Pathfinder's rule set is considerably less restrictive. As listed in the Grappled condition"In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell.And while I do not believe the RAW directly state that Still Spell would negate the Concentration check listed above, I would strongly believe that it should, and would certainly rule it that way in my game.
Then the rules are contradicting themselves. From the "Magic" section:
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
It says the ONLY spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those WITHOUT somatic components. This is from this page.
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Still Spell is really only useful for situations where you do not have one hand to devote to spellcasting, such as when you are pinned. You can attempt to cast a spell when grappled, and you must make a concentration check to cast it (whether or not the spell has a Somatic component). Still spell is also handy for casters who intend to wield weapons or shields quite frequently.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If this is true, Jason, you might want to look into updating the section of the PFSRD I indicated above to clarify.
Thank you, everyone, for clarifying the rules on the matter. Just to make sure I have it right.
Grappled - Still Spell offers no benefit. A Concentration check DC 10 + CMB + Spell level is required to cast.
Pinned - Still Spell allows one to cast, with a Concentration check DC 10 + CMB + Spell level required. (edited DC, thank you Fatespinner)
Is the intention to make sure that a caster is unable to cast while grappled?
Consider. A 2nd level wizard trying to cast his 1st level spells while grappled by a CR 2 choker. DC 19.
A 9th level wizard trying to cast his 5th level spells while grappled by a CR 9 T-Rex. DC 47.
A 20th level wizard trying to cast his 9th level spells while grappled by a CR 20 pit fiend. DC 57.
The 20th level wizard probably has a +30 bonus on Concentration checks. If he gets grappled by a T-Rex, he's unlikely to be able to cast even cantrips.
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Thank you, everyone, for clarifying the rules on the matter. Just to make sure I have it right.
Grappled - Still Spell offers no benefit. A Concentration check DC 20 + CMB + Spell level is required to cast.
Pinned - Still Spell allows one to cast, with a Concentration check DC 20 + CMB + Spell level required.
The DC is 10 + CMB + spell level, not 20.
A T-Rex has a CMB of +28, so 10 + 28 + spell level. A 5th level spell would be DC 43. Yes, very difficult, probably nearly impossible. As it should be. The T-Rex isn't grappling you with it's stumpy forearms. It's EATING YOU. Casting isn't gonna happen there.
The DC is 10 + CMB + spell level, not 20.Thank you, everyone, for clarifying the rules on the matter. Just to make sure I have it right.
Grappled - Still Spell offers no benefit. A Concentration check DC 20 + CMB + Spell level is required to cast.
Pinned - Still Spell allows one to cast, with a Concentration check DC 20 + CMB + Spell level required.
Which doesn't change the fact that the DC are still impossibly high. If grappled even a wizard with still spell is completely screwed. Do we really need CR 9 monsters killing 20th level archmages?
Thank you, everyone, for clarifying the rules on the matter. Just to make sure I have it right.
Grappled - Still Spell offers no benefit. A Concentration check DC 20 + CMB + Spell level is required to cast.
Pinned - Still Spell allows one to cast, with a Concentration check DC 20 + CMB + Spell level required.
The DC is 10 + CMB + spell level, not 20.
A T-Rex has a CMB of +28, so 10 + 28 + spell level. A 5th level spell would be DC 43. Yes, very difficult, probably nearly impossible. As it should be. The T-Rex isn't grappling you with it's stumpy forearms. It's EATING YOU. Casting isn't gonna happen there.
Thank you for the clarification, I've edited.
You are missing the +4 grapple modifier for T-Rex, making the DC 47.
A 20th level wizard with 30 Int grappled in a CR 9 creature's mouth, has no viable spell related actions. They can cast cantrips with a Concentration roll of 17, or 3rd level spells with a roll of 20.
That seems off to me. Other characters still get options when the T-Rex eats them, even if it swallows.
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Director of Game Design
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There is an incongruence btw the magic chapter and the grappled condition (and a few other spots). This will be cleared up, but the grappled condition wins out here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
There is an incongruence btw the magic chapter and the grappled condition (and a few other spots). This will be cleared up, but the grappled condition wins out here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I appreciate the clarification. Do you have any feelings on the level 20 wizard being unable to cast anything over a 3rd level spell even with a natural 20 on a concentration check when attacked by a CR 9 monster?
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Thank you for the clarification, I've edited.
You are missing the +4 grapple modifier for T-Rex, making the DC 47.
A 20th level wizard with 30 Int grappled in a CR 9 creature's mouth, has no viable spell related actions. They can cast cantrips with a Concentration roll of 17, or 3rd level spells with a roll of 20.
That seems off to me. Other characters still get options when the T-Rex eats them, even if it swallows.
The grapple modifier wouldn't be added in, since the T-Rex isn't MAKING a check in this case. It's base CMB (which is used to determine the DC of the check) is the only factor. The grapple bonus only applies when it is making a check.
A 20th level wizard with 30 Int grappled in a CR 9 creature's mouth, has no viable spell related actions.
Yes. The spell-related actions should have stopped the wizard from getting there in the first place.
Contingency Freedom of Movement, anyone?
A 20th level wizard with 30 Int grappled in a CR 9 creature's mouth, has no viable spell related actions.Yes. The spell-related actions should have stopped the wizard from getting there in the first place.
Contingency Freedom of Movement, anyone?
Of course! Because freedom of movement is on the wizard spell list, and there isn't any other threat the wizard might want to protect himself against with his one contingency except grapples.
Seriously, don't be a jackass. I can think of at least half a dozen situations in which you could end up grappled without a chance to react before hand, and setting that up to be instant death for a wizard is a little absurd.
The grapple modifier wouldn't be added in, since the T-Rex isn't MAKING a check in this case. It's base CMB (which is used to determine the DC of the check) is the only factor. The grapple bonus only applies when it is making a check.Thank you for the clarification, I've edited.
You are missing the +4 grapple modifier for T-Rex, making the DC 47.
A 20th level wizard with 30 Int grappled in a CR 9 creature's mouth, has no viable spell related actions. They can cast cantrips with a Concentration roll of 17, or 3rd level spells with a roll of 20.
That seems off to me. Other characters still get options when the T-Rex eats them, even if it swallows.
I disagree with your interpretation (It says CMB +32 for grapple, this is clearly grapple related rules), but even still, the DC is impossibly high. DC 43 (for cantrips) is utterly impossible for a 9th level wizard to make. It is unlikely that a 20th level wizard will make it as well. This is for a CR 9 monster.
Avalon, the existence of other options in the game has no bearing on whether or not the Concentration DC is effectively impossible. I am merely ensuring that the intention of such a formula was to ensure that grappled casters could not cast.
The caster would be much better off using the grapple rules to get a hand free to cast without the concentration check -- however that's in the grapple section and the hold damn situation on this one is ugly.
The rules in three different places all disagree on what happens based on what is and is not happening.
Just wanted to bump this thread so people can FAQ Jason's post above for the FAQ. It's been a year now, let's give him a gentle reminder, shall we?
Agreed. Double bump.
Not to add fire to the oil bowl but ...
What if he also uses a silent to that still spell?
no talking and no gestures required ...
What about that concentrationcheck now?
still neccessary?
if yes, are you serious?
Lots of vigorous motion can force Concentration checks too. Therefore, even if you don't need to make gestures or incantations, you still need to try and maintain concentration while being ruthlessly thrashed about.
then why would any wizard NOT take the Su Teleport Power???
if it negates one of the biggest weaknesses a full caster has?
The thing I usually do is just downgrade the effect by a step. Spells with Somatic components (material components just need the free hand, doesn't matter if its bound or not as long as its in hand) only require a concentration check while grappled by are impossible in a pin. Spells with no somatic components require a concentration check in a pin/bind as even if you just have to speak a word, someone can just shake you to check your concentration.
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and use a scroll (using a spell completion item is not "casting a spell" and does not require a Concentration check to perform while grappled.)
Are you sure?
Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be.
To me that says that the scroll requires a concentration check.
The rule is a bit hidden, but it's there.
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SRD isn't the Core Rulebook for Pathfinder and it isn't relevant.
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details.
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell
you’re casting) or lose the spell.
Here's some weird wording.
"If a spell doesn’t have a somatic component, an arcane spellcaster can cast it with no arcane spell failure chance while wearing armor. Such spells can also be cast even if the caster’s hands are bound or he is grappling (although concentration checks still apply normally)."That word "normally".
In context, "the normal concentration check for grappling still applies."
I cannot make that make sense. "Normally" and "still" are extraneous, but not only extraneous, they imply something that's not true.
Contrast this with
"(Nonsomatic) spells can also be cast even if the caster’s hands are bound or he is grappling (although concentration checks apply)."It makes much more sense without those two words. With those words "normally" and "still", they're comparing nonsomatic spells to "normal" (somatic) spells - implying that a somatic spell cast while grappling would also have a concentration check - a check which "still" applies if a spell is nonsomatic.
What concentration check applies during grappling if the spell has a somatic component? There isn't one.
This is what I mean when I say it's incomplete editing.
There is nothing odd or hard to understand about the wording in those rules… what you are proposing is to alter the actual rule to suit a incorrect reading of the rule.
Somatic or nonsomatic, ALL spells require a concentration check while grappled. Just as ALL spells require a concentration check to cast defensively, and ALL spells require a concentration check when you take damage while casting or are suffering from a source of continual damage (such as bleed). The rule you quoted simply clarifies this.
Also, read above where Jason Bulmahn, the lead designer, clarified that the inconsistency in the rules was in error and that spellcasting while grappled follows the grappled conditions rules, which does NOT prohibit somatic spells.
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To be preciseBulhman post report "Answered in the errata" beside the FAQ requests.
And the 4th to 6th edition errata says:
Page 206—In the Concentration section, replace the Grappling or Pinned paragraph with the following:
Grappled or Pinned: Casting a spell while you have the grappled or pinned condition is difficult and requires a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler’s CMB + the level of the spell you’re casting). Pinned creatures can only cast spells that do not have somatic components.
Now the only problem is why I had the 5th printing PDF in a cartel called 6th printing. :(
The SRD should get that errata.
Can you please link what SRD you were looking at?
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Diego, would this work, you have an improved familiar and the sla that alows you to switch bodies with your familiar you do so as a move action and to have a staff with teleport on it inside you familiar pocket as a free action you touch your body and teleport out of danger.
Going to need a little of clarification, but the answer is likely "no" (as stated).
1) What's the name of the SLA you are referring to? I'm not familiar with it.
2) When you say "familiar pocket" is that some specific item/ability/spell or do you just mean your familiar happens to be carrying a staff that has teleport as one of its spells?
If the switch bodies ability is (Sp), then it depends on the exact wording. Spell-like abilities that duplicate spells have the same components as the spell.