Question: If I have a weapon with the brace ability and am currently stealthed, can I
1)Brace the weapon while maintaining stealth naturally
2)brace the weapon while behind an ally granting partial cover/ concealment
--Pathfinder Society--
The issue being had is specifically to bracing a weapon without breaking stealth, allowing for brace to hit sneak attack damage or other modifiers based on being stealthy. I'm being told no because 'the spear is big and can be seen' when I brace it. However, the ready action brace does not state it breaks stealth, nor is there any descriptor saying as much in the stealth concealment portions of the rule book. I feel like this is a moot point because I have seen lasso's and other 2 handed weapons of massive size ready actioned while stealthed. Also, it seems that if if I can't be stealthy bracing a weapon, I should never be able to stealth in general, as you cant hide a spear or other similar weapon. In my personal opinion (as a martial weapons practitioner and instructor) that bracing a weapon against a non mounted opponent would make the weapon much harder to see than if it was upright.Ps: Please no 'its up to the gm' bs. He's not my gm we both want a solid answer to this quandary. and I would much prefer a Paizo mod settle this if possible. If there is no where in the rule book saying I can't, why cant I?
You're almost certainly not going to get a Paizo mod answering this question, nor should you. They have a lot better things to do with their time, like develop new product, than to resolve disputes between you and a friend.
Grow up and resolve your own dispute.
Actually this is a simple one even if you can do it, then it doesn't matter since your under stealth then you won't be targeted by a charge anyway.
This isn't a Pathfinder Society issue.
You'll have better luck in the rules forum.
One note that may be helpful though is:
Read the rules on Soft Cover in the combat section of the CRB.
If you were invisible (or Hide in Plain Sight) and the creature was charging through you on the way to a target he could see, then you could take the AOO from brace and apply Sneak Attack damage.
I can't think of any situation where a creature would be charging through you but not seeing you.
It's not so much that Brace breaks stealth (I would argue the mere act of bracing your spear does not--the PC is more skilled at stealth than me and more aware of the surroundings than me, so he can figure out a way to do it), but for Brace to trigger, a creature needs to charge you (and to do that, it needs to see you).
Bracing your spear means you're standing still, and waiting for your enemy to run right up to you to get properly stuck with said spear.
Which really can't be done if your enemy can't see you to run up to, if you think about it.
If you want sneak attack damage with your spear, you pretty much need to be striking first while your enemy is flat-footed or otherwise denied dex.
Yes, this means you need to choose between sneak attack damage and getting whatever benefit you'd get from bracing.
Of course there is the issue of attacking through the cover provided by your ally...
The Phalanx Formation feat can take care of that.
The bigger issue I see is that you need to ready an action in order to brace. In my experience, the braced weapon is usually a threat that causes opponents to charge someone else.
You may want to read this thread about tactics and the use of brace.
The bigger issue I see is that you need to ready an action in order to brace. In my experience, the braced weapon is usually a threat that causes opponents to charge someone else.
Works well with Animals and Vermin. Or should.
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You will get some table variation from GMs on when you need to roll a stealth check for actions other than moving. Some will want a check for every little thing while others will be more forgiving. The rules are most likely a bit vague to give GMs license to decide for themselves how they want to run it.
Brace does not state that it can only be used against an enemy charging the stealthed character, so all that is fine.
If it was my game and the stealthed character did not have his weapon out, I would have a stealth check rolled, but I would also give a circumstance bonus to the character since I would consider the action of readying the weapon to be somewhat minor. Just my way of handling it.
[...]If I use a spear I have extended range, If an ally directly in front of me is charged, and the enemy enters my threat range, even if the charge was not directed at me it still applies Brace. [ooc]
I ncan understand why you say that, as the brace rules say <<Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging creature.> in the prd, and it no states a brace must be set against you.
But unfortunately that's not a solid answer, as you have read there are some people that interpret that you have to ready the weapon against a rule against YOU. So it can fall in some table variance (but you have good arguments for it). Also, there's nothing about the size of the weapon and being able to stalth or not. If you find cover to hide you, hidding you plus a weapon has the same difficult.
Besides that, I want to ask you take in account that, even't if you want a kind of answer, it doesn't mean that´s what is going to happen:
-Mod's answers are scarce and asking for it doesn't make it more posible (I've seen a couple of threats asking for it without answer)
-Asking for a solid answer to a question that don't have one (stealth is confusing).
-Also, and even more importat in my opinion, saying "if there is no where in the rule book saying I can't, why cant I?" The rulebook doesn't say what you can't but what you can; you can brace because there is a rule for it, but you can't use an action to parry with a shield because there is no such rule (it's simplified as more AC), and so on.
And lastly, as Drahliana say, being stealth doesn't means you automatically can do sneak attack damage as it doesn't states it denies enemy DES modifier, some GMs will allow it, but others will not.
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To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Creatures gain a bonus or penalty on Stealth checks based on their size: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Medium +0, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
NOTE- You repeatedly mention spear and reach, I'm going on the assumption you mean Longspear, as a spear does not have reach.
So, first if you are behind a person, but otherwise not somewhere that you would have cover/concealment, (Because soft cover does not apply for stealth checks) Then you will be come visible to anyone you were hiding from because when you ready your action you are ending your turn. If you are able to set this up somewhere that you do have cover/concealment/or some other ability to stealth in plain site, then you've succeeded at step 1, ready the brace action while remaining stealthed.
Next, assuming you're doing this behind what you think will be the charged target, then that person is providing soft cover to the charging character. So they will get a +4 bonus to their AC. As Bracing is a readied action, AoO is not relevant as was mentioned previously. So they can not see you, are charging, and gain soft cover, so AC to hit them will be Flatfooted AC +2.
Because a brace is a specific readied action, this will ONLY work if the target actually charges. If for some reason they only move +attack then your readied action will not take place.
Finally since sneak attack damage is precision damage it does not get multiplied when weapon damage is multiplied. So final damage on a hit would be 2d8 + (Static dmg)x2 + Sneak attack dmg.
If you were NOT behind the target of the charge then it becomes more questionable, Brace doubles damage because the charge is going directly into the spear, so i would say it only works if they would have charged directly over you. If they miss your square then you are not set properly to receive the charge and it doesn't work. Potentially you could hit as above, but then question of if the charging character can charge you instead at that point or if you have interrupted the charge entirely come into play, that is all discussed in other threads.
So short version:
1)Brace the weapon while maintaining stealth naturally: Without hide in plain sight, NO, with hide in plain sight, Yes.
2)brace the weapon while behind an ally granting partial cover/ concealment, the ally alone is not sufficient to provide the cover/concealment you need to be stealthed. so See #1, or find some other form of cover/concealment.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
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Being able to take a 5' step as part of your readied action may allow you to intercept the charge with your braced weapon. Really depends on the GM.
It says conditions in the readied actions. I expect table variation, but if the action is brace and attack with conditions being coming within the area you can attack (including the 5' step), that may be a way to get around the move and attack.
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You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
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Being able to take a 5' step as part of your readied action may allow you to intercept the charge with your braced weapon. Really depends on the GM.
It says conditions in the readied actions. I expect table variation, but if the action is brace and attack with conditions being coming within the area you can attack (including the 5' step), that may be a way to get around the move and attack.
I would definitely agree combining a 5' step with a readied brace would be a GM call. Personally since the Brace action is a very specific readied action I would not allow it. For an idea of bracing (at least how I view it) you could watch "The 13th Warrior" I can't see someone jumping to the side 5' and setting that up at the last moment.
I would allow the 5' step just because that is the accuracy of the movement rules. There is no such thing as shifting over 1' or any other distance of less than 5'. The 5' step is an acknowledgement that positioning is not that precise.
I would definitely agree combining a 5' step with a readied brace would be a GM call. Personally since the Brace action is a very specific readied action I would not allow it. For an idea of bracing (at least how I view it) you could watch "The 13th Warrior" I can't see someone jumping to the side 5' and setting that up at the last moment.
I would allow it, for several reasons.
* The rules allow it. If you're going to say "realism" trumps the rules, then I want to be able to apply precision damage when I attack someone from behind. PF doesn't have facing, you say? Tough noogies. It's bad form to use realism only as a club to beat someone with.
* Martials can't have nice things anyway. Why start taking away even their bad options?
* The 5' step is an abstraction representing shifting in combat. I can certainly shift in combat when I'm bracing a spear. As Churchill almost said, "we've established that. Now we're haggling over the distance."