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If you are proficient with a weapon you are proficient with it in it's entirety unless specified otherwise, such as something like "with all thrown weapons when thrown".
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A thrown weapon is a melee weapon with a range entry. It is pretty well defined.
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dragonhunterq is correct.
A Dagger is a thrown weapon, a 2-handed sword is not, even if you can throw it.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table 6–4), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or onehanded weapon is a standard action, while throwing a twohanded weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Note: Ultimate Equipment went with 'examples' since there could not be a comprehensive list of thrown weapons.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, and nets are examples of thrown weapons.
Alternately, you could go by the Fighter 'Thrown' weapon group although there are some discrepancies between it and the CRB entry on Thrown Weapons.
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.
Aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, hunga munga, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, pilum, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sibat, sling, snag net, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart
In any case, a 2-handed sword is not a thrown weapon even if you choose to throw it.
(other logical stuff)
Alternately, you could go by the Fighter 'Thrown' weapon group although there are some discrepancies between it and the CRB entry on Thrown Weapons.
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.Aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, hunga munga, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, pilum, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sibat, sling, snag net, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dartIn any case, a 2-handed sword is not a thrown weapon even if you choose to throw it.
Two reasons to not use those lists, tho. One, the sling. Two, the halfling sling staff. Then again, the sling isn't really a melee weapon. (The sling staff, tho, is used as a club if you're stuck in melee ... which means I'd grant you the ability to konk somebody with it from club proficiency, but not to use its ranged attack.)
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Two reasons to not use those lists, tho. One, the sling. Two, the halfling sling staff. Then again, the sling isn't really a melee weapon. (The sling staff, tho, is used as a club if you're stuck in melee ... which means I'd grant you the ability to konk somebody with it from club proficiency, but not to use its ranged attack.)(other logical stuff)
Alternately, you could go by the Fighter 'Thrown' weapon group although there are some discrepancies between it and the CRB entry on Thrown Weapons.
Thrown: blowgun, bolas, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, and trident.Aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, hunga munga, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, pilum, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sibat, sling, snag net, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dartIn any case, a 2-handed sword is not a thrown weapon even if you choose to throw it.
I agree that the fighter thrown weapon categories does not make a lot of sense when they include non-thrown ranged weapons. But, Pathfinder often doesn't make sense. :)
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In any case, a 2-handed sword is not a thrown weapon even if you choose to throw it.it is a throwing weapon if its enchanted to be a throwing weapon :) its a +1 enchantment i beleive and then returning is another +1
The special ability is called Throwing (UE p148). Yes, it should allow the weapon to qualify as a throwing weapon.
The wording of the ability for a far strike monk is "proficient with all thrown weapons".
My reading is that you're proficient with throwing anything. Probably including improvised weapons. But you aren't proficient with, say, using a starknife in melee.
But I can see this being read a lot of ways. Thoughts?
You're reading is wrong. What it means that you're proficient with weapons that are of the "thrown" category. such as darts, daggers, shuriken, javelin, throwing axes, etc.
The special ability is called Throwing (UE p148). Yes, it should allow the weapon to qualify as a throwing weapon.In any case, a 2-handed sword is not a thrown weapon even if you choose to throw it.it is a throwing weapon if its enchanted to be a throwing weapon :) its a +1 enchantment i beleive and then returning is another +1
I'm now trying to think of the wrongest weapons to apply those to, in terms of 'This is just wrong!'. The sansetsukon/three-section staff comes to mind.
And if you got your hands on a +1 throwing sansetsukon? I'd ... let you throw it OK but not wield in melee. This might even be a charitable interpretation, as the exact text is this:
Throwing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use.
I could see the argument that it's not a thrown weapon, merely a weapon that can be thrown by someone who's proficient in it. Barbie the Barbarian can chuck that +1 throwing sansetsukon as she's proficient with all martial melee weapons, but Farley the Far-strike Monk wouldn't know a three-section staff from a chief of staff (assuming this was a core monk, not unchained) and thus couldn't.
]I agree that the fighter thrown weapon categories does not make a lot of sense when they include non-thrown ranged weapons. But, Pathfinder often doesn't make sense. :)
Many times this. It proves that a 'thrown weapon' doesn't have to mean a weapon that's thrown. ;)
As is often the case in pathfinder, there are multiple meanings to a single term.
Common usage: any weapon you throw.
Weapon type: melee weapon with a range. This one "doesn't make a lot of sense" when you take into account weapons you throw that aren't melee weapons. When you throw a Javelin, you're throwing a ranged weapon. The fact that the rules call some weapons "thrown weapons" while listing them under ranged weapons further confuses things.
Fighter group: Also "doesn't make a lot of sense", as projectiles are included. So it's kind of the opposite of the weapon type [weapons you throw not included vs non-thrown weapons included].
So only the common usage if a perfect fit really. For myself though, I go with Fighter group. I see no reason not to give Halfling slingstaff monks a chance. ;)
How about every weapon that has a listed range but is not a projectile weapon?
How about every weapon that has a listed range but is not a projectile weapon?
Even that runs into issues as things like Amentum, Atlatl, Sling-spear, spear thrower, ect that walk the line between projectile and thrown. Some even mention projectile and thrown in the same description meaning that weapons described as thrown or using throwing could be excluded from 'thrown weapons'...
It's really a big mess.
On reflection I think I need to expand on my definition slightly to include ranged weapons described as throwing weapons such as javelins and darts.
You would probably have to go through some of the corner cases as I would include the amentum, but not the atlatl. I fully expect you will run into table variation on those.
Common usage and Fighter weapon group are both bad sources for this purpose.
Common usage and Fighter weapon group are both bad sources for this purpose.
I don't see how weapon group is 'bad' or worse that 'thrown weapons'. You yourself say that you'll be expanding thrown weapons, so how is that better than saying you could use the fighter group and reducing it? Both require editing so it's hard to see one as better.
The only issue I see is common usage and melee combat, as it could be seen as restricting using weapons you aren't throwing as opposed to simple looking for a weapon type/weapon group. The archetype functions quite differently that way.
Throwing means you move your arm forward (towards to target). If you don't do that, it's not throwing.
Amentum and Atlatl have mostly the same movement as normal throw, so they should be indeed thrown weapons.
Spear-thrower isn't a weapon itself, but the same resoning would apply.
Sling-spear says "treated as a projectile weapon instead of a thrown weapon", so it answers the question. You also move the arm away from the target.
Throwing means you move your arm forward (towards to target). If you don't do that, it's not throwing.
So a sling is throwing right ? It uses the same motion as a grappling hook/rope dart. Slingstaff? It makes the same general throwing movement [draw back and then move arm forward towards target].
On the sling-spear, the issue is that the ammo IS a thrown weapon by it's own right so you are still using both a thrown weapon AND a projectile weapon. It's much like a Launching crossbow firing acid is both a projectile weapon and a splash weapon.
Secondly, the Atlatl that you give a pass on is "loaded like a projectile weapon" and you can take the projectile only feat Rapid Reload for it.
So again, this is all a mess and there really isn't a simple answer. You have exceptions no matter what you do and "hand movement" is out as you can find the same kind of movement in both projectile and thrown weapons. Using movement ends up with either slings being thrown weapons or grappling hooks as projectile weapons...
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Speaking as the writer of the archetype, the intent of things is thus:
A far strike monk is proficient with thrown melee weapons in melee, but he can only flurry when throwing weapons (not when using in melee a weapons that can be thrown).
A thrown weapon for the purposes of proficiency is any weapon that is designed to be thrown or to throw, which is to say anything with a range increment and a maximum range of 5 times the range increment. The fighter's thrown category pretty much covers it. Admittedly not all of these are necessarily thematic or efficient for the far strike monk.
Note the word designed. The far strike monk isn't automatically proficient with thrown improvised weapons, nor with weapons that can be thrown because of magic.
Of course, that's just me. As always, ask you GM.
So a sling is throwing right?
I could live with that (and yes, I realize that we basically end with the weapon group minus the two blow guns - except open ended forfuture weapons). It's not like Far Strike Monk was overpowered... Oh no, a monk with 50ft reach, the world will end! *cough* Zen Archer *cough*
Regarding sling-spear: Please look up what the word "instead" means.