Need help understanding the Rat King stat block!


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Linky to the full stat block

When the stat block says Defensive Abilities: critical hits, flanking, effects that target a specific number of creatures, does that mean that a rat king is immune to these things?

While the creature is missing the 'swarm' subtype, is it meant to be a sort of pseudo swarm and if so how does it interact with the kineticist class which states Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). or the Swarm Bane Clasp wich reads The wearer's weapons, unarmed attacks, and natural attacks deal full damage to swarms, regardless of the swarm's immunity to weapon damage (if any, although damage reduction applies as normal).

I am GMing an AP that features this creature and both a kineticist and a swarmbane clasp are present in the party.


It is not a swarm, so it doesn't take extra damage from area effects. They might think it's a swarm at first, but Rat Kings are as much a rat swarm as Hydras are a snake swarm.

As for the defensive abilities, it's safe to say that probably lists immunities.

Grand Lodge

I guess the part I am most concerned with is the "(immune to) effects that target a specific number of creatures".

Is my Kineticist player just screwed when fighting this creature?

Silver Crusade

I don't know much about Kineticist but AoEs that don't target anything should be fine.

Grand Lodge

A ranged Kineticist's main attack, the Kinetic Blast, is a SLA which targets a single creature. While swarms are not a problem for them due the clause stated above, this rat king appears to be a big pain for them.

Edit: upon further reading I noticed that the swarm trait "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures" is different from the rat king in that the spell portion is omitted. @_@ what a kooky monster.

Grand Lodge

I don't know if a kinetic blast would count as an effect as well as a spell. Any insight from you folk out there. Seeing as how the Kineticist is the big damage dealer of the party, if she is rendered useless by this creature then the fight will be drastically different.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms)." PRD


That's not what he's talking about, Darrel. Rat Kings aren't swarms.

Grand Lodge

Darrell Impey UK wrote:
"Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms)." PRD

as Azten said, rat kings aren't swarms. I am now imagining a party of 6 kineticists being TPK'ed by a single one of these guys...


Until they use an area infusion, or kinetic blade, or pull out a *gasp* melee weapon! XD


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that this is a Creature that encourages certain infusion choices for the Kineticist.


I would argue that a kinetic blast is an attack. The damage would occur on a hit just the same as a sword attack. The riders that affect a single target might not apply (like entangle).

Also, the "specific number of creatures" ties back to the swarm where things like Slow (one creature/level) or Magic Missile (up to five creatures) don't work.

A kinetic blast is more like Acid Arrow where the effect is "one arrow of acid" or Scorching Ray where the effect is "one or more rays." The effect of a kinectic blast would be "one blast."

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