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I'm starting an intrigue-heavy plotline and noticed that one of my party members has a good Knowledge (nobility) check but no Knowledge (local), and another has a good Knowledge (local) but no Knowledge (nobility). Normally I don't sweat the overlap between these two skills, but I'm trying to put in an extra effort to provide clues relevant to individual PCs' skills & background for this adventure.
The description of the Knowledge skills says that Knowledge (local) covers legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, and humanoids. Examples of knowledge (local) checks are:
- Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations (DC 10)
- Know a common rumor or local tradition (DC 15)
- Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations (DC 20)
Nobility covers lineages, heraldry, personalities, and royalty. Examples include:
- Know current rulers and their symbols (DC 10)
- Know proper etiquette (DC 15)
- Know line of succession (DC 20)
So since Local can be used to identify rulers and personalities, it looks like the only things that are uniquely covered by Nobility are lineages, heraldry, and etiquette. And Nobility notably doesn't appear to give you knowledge of the "power behind the throne" or laws and traditions regarding the rights and responsibilities of rulers.
Granted, heraldry and etiquette will be a bit more useful in a courtly intrigue situation than a typical dungeon, but this still seems unimpressive, and I'd really like to make the player with Knowledge (nobility) feel good about his skill investment.
Any ideas?
You can modify what Nobility is able to obtain through Kn rolls, perhaps at a slight penalty, since it isn't the primary Kn skill. And I would argue that Nobility should also give the powers in the shadows because if you know the nobility well enough then you should know who pulls their strings.
Maybe Nobility can get "X and Y nobles are 'owned' by either local cartel N or M" but doesn't know specifics and then Local can get "A is the head of Cartel L, B is the head of Cartel M, and C is the head of Cartel N." but doesn't know which rules they have their fingers around.
Nobility is kind of a knowledge/social skill hybrid. You need it to know the special ettiquette used by nobles and you will stick out if you don't have it while trying to start a conversation with one.
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So since Local can be used to identify rulers and personalities, it looks like the only things that are uniquely covered by Nobility are lineages, heraldry, and etiquette. And Nobility notably doesn't appear to give you knowledge of the "power behind the throne" or laws and traditions regarding the rights and responsibilities of rulers.
Granted, heraldry and etiquette will be a bit more useful in a courtly intrigue situation than a typical dungeon, but this still seems unimpressive, and I'd really like to make the player with Knowledge (nobility) feel good about his skill investment.
Any ideas?
If we base our arguments on logic, rather than the very scarce examples you cited in the rulebook, I would expect knowledge (nobility) to include such things as:
- major battles, since armies generally belong to nobility, and the nobility's martial exploits are pretty important to them.- major events like kidnappings, guys held for ransom, lawsuits and other sorts of intrigues that directly involves nobility as major players or victims. When the Princess of Whatsis gets kidnapped, or one of her ladies-in-waiting is caught trying to poison the king, that's knowledge (nobility) -type news.
- with higher DCs, intrigues, plots and other things that the nobility is actively trying to keep secret should also fall under the purview of this skill.
- anything that nobles and their immediate household is likely to gossip about might qualify.
The problem with both knowledge (local) and knowledge (nobility) is really the lack of a localized identifier to the skill. A character with either of those skills shouldn't get to use them without penalty in a distant country he's never been to or even knows anything about. I would impose a "foreigner" penalty to both those skills, depending on the relative distance or isolation of the kingdom, country or community, and let the PC earn back those penalty points over a period of days or weeks spent networking with local folks at the appropriate social level.
For example, a character from Magnimar might be able to use those skills without penalty in Riddleport or some other Varisian city, but if he travelled to distant Tian or Katapesh, he'd operate at a stiff penalty for some time, depending on his other social and linguistics skills.
Knowledge (Local): Knowledge about Humanoids, their settlements and general customs. You know the streets.
Knowledge (Nobility): Knowledge about famous humanoids, their politics and the mannerisms and heraldry of the ruling classes. You know the courts.
Another way to handle this is to have the plot revolve more around events that Kn:Nobility would be more likely to hint at. If there are assassinations going on, maybe knowing who's next in the line of succession is a clue to who's behind the killings (or who the next victim might be). The Kn:Local character will probably end up rolling their skill-checks more often, but the Kn:Nobility character will be the one to get the major clues ... just a thought.
(I do like the more home-brew suggestions above though).
The way I see it knowledge local is being able to dig up the local dirt. It’s great for finding out things about the location you are at, but beyond that it does not do much. It’s also good identifying humanoids no matter where you are. So if you want to know about the ruler of the country you are in you can use knowledge local , but If you want information about the ruler of a distant kingdom then you would need knowledge nobility.
So if you are in France you will have a lot of information on the king of France. But you don’t know anything about the duke of Edinburg. Knowledge local is also limited to current history so you know who the current king is, but not who his grandfather was.
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I have always used knowledge:nobility as a stand-in skill for an character who wants act as a lawyer facing the justice courts. Proper etiquette and at least some law knowledge (heredity and lines of sucession need laws and these need to cover the passing of wealth so need laws on property, defence of property etc)
I have always used knowledge:nobility as a stand-in skill for an character who wants act as a lawyer facing the justice courts. Proper etiquette and at least some law knowledge (heredity and lines of sucession need laws and these need to cover the passing of wealth so need laws on property, defence of property etc)
I believe that would be Profession: Barrister. Probably.
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Nobility can also cover the goings-on of the upper crust of society. Local can tell you WHO is the ruler, nobility can tell you how he got there, who are his enemies, and which duke would take the throne should he die.
Think of it like this:
In America, everyone knows that Donald Trump is president, and most know Mike Pence is his VP. Knowledge local. But it would take nobility (or civics) to know their general schedules, the person third in line for the presidency, and all the polictical ties that Trump has.
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Thanks for the ideas! Let me try to summarize:
- Local should only give superficial information about rulers and their public reputation. Nobility is necessary for the details, particularly relationships between powers.
- Local covers common rumours but Nobility should cover rumours that specifically circulate among the nobility (likely the juicier plots).
- Nobility should cover some History insofar as those events directly involve the nobility.
- Despite what the book suggests, Nobility should be at least as useful for understanding the legal system as Local is.
- Make etiquette count.
If we base our arguments on logic, rather than the very scarce examples you cited in the rulebook
Part of my concern/confusion is that the scarce examples in the rulebook seem to contradict logic. For example, 'laws' is mentioned under Local but not Nobility despite that being contrary to most of the posters' ideas of how it should work.
Another way to handle this is to have the plot revolve more around events that Kn:Nobility would be more likely to hint at. If there are assassinations going on, maybe knowing who's next in the line of succession is a clue to who's behind the killings (or who the next victim might be). The Kn:Local character will probably end up rolling their skill-checks more often, but the Kn:Nobility character will be the one to get the major clues ... just a thought.
I've already outlined and laid the groundwork for this particular plot. It does mostly concern nobles so I'd assumed that it would have a lot of opportunity to use Knowledge (nobility). While I've still got at least one major clue that involves succession/inheritance and a couple of opportunities for etiquette rolls, I'm surprised by the amount of politics that could according to the CRB fall under Local.
If we base our arguments on logic, rather than the very scarce examples you cited in the rulebookPart of my concern/confusion is that the scarce examples in the rulebook seem to contradict logic. For example, 'laws' is mentioned under Local but not Nobility despite that being contrary to most of the posters' ideas of how it should work.
I think Law comes in 2 flavours - Criminal Laws that keep you out of Jail, something every traveler and local should know by adulthood (Murder bad, don't steal, no gambling on Sunday).
And Laws that involve Civic disputes - Land ownership, taxes, import/export values, succession and inheritance, business licenses.The first would be used daily, and involve guards and citizens, coins for bribes would have the power here. These would be resolved in small scale and may never see a judge except in dramatic circumstances. Knowing which guard is lenient, or can be bribed is far more important to most pathfinders and locals.
The second would involve Judges, lawyers and the nobles who can afford the courts. There names and etiquette would have value as most cases may involve some drama and positioning via defamation/plot revealing/revenges/etc. Cases may be started over minor things (his business is 2ft onto my property) merely to be innocent when something worse is revealed about them (there is an illegal drug operation inside? I had no idea!). The family maneuvering (or forcing people to come home to defend themselves and thus weaken some other position) is more important than the outcome.
Personally, the way I would handle it IS with a lot of overlap. Laws/etiquette can be gained with either Nobility or Local. It's just a case of where did you learn them? Were you trained formally reading a lot of books and discussing them with the people who wrote the laws while smoking cigars and drinking brandy.... or did you pick up the basics at the local tavern when you were new in town? What are the laws about stealing? Is it jail or a fine? Execution? What are the limits I can get away with... vs. Which legal statute was broken and how does the justice system actually work and which judges can be bribed or who has a drinking problem... and which noble owes who the favor...
Two adventurers can beat the same encounter, just going about it very differently.
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I almost wish they had changed Knowledge: Local to something like "Knowledge: Streetwise" (things every commoner would know about an area, both licit and illicit) and rename "Knowledge: Nobility" to "Knowledge: Governance" (nobles, government bureaucracies, influential merchants, civil laws, etc.). Impose a circumstance penalty anytime these skills are used outside of a character's "home" country (as determined by their background). I also sort of wish they had kept the "skill synergies" from 3.5--I liked the idea, for example, that having 5 ranks in Knowledge: Nobility would give a small Diplomacy bonus when trying to persuade royalty.
There's a great thread HERE that combines Knowledge (Geography), (Local), and (Nobility) together quite logically, as well as tweaking other Knowledges to compensate for the shift in skill usefulness. I highly recommend taking a look.