Oversized shuriken?


Rules Questions


Are huge- or large-sized shuriken wieldable by a medium-sized monk?


Yes, though their stats are terrible. Why would you want to throw a 1d4 shuriken at -2 to attack, or a 1d6 shuriken with -4?

Edit: I should add that while it's not mentioned in the rules, as a GM I wouldn't make oversized shuriken a free action to draw, at least at the two size categories larger point.


Does this mean that a Monk could use a Colossal Shuriken?

I understand that the penalties are massive, but the question stands. Is it possible to use them?


A huge or larger monk could use a colossal shuriken, yes. There's a limit of two size categories difference with oversized weapons.


avr wrote:
A huge or larger monk could use a colossal shuriken, yes. There's a limit of two size categories difference with oversized weapons.

A shuriken is a ranged weapon without a listed light, one-handed, or two-handed category.

Which does it fall into? It is explicitly stated that it cannot be used as a melee weapon.

This point in particular is why the standard oversize rules didn't immediately answer the question.

Silver Crusade

Axoren, I'm not going to open a book over this. No one in his right mind would consider a shuriken one handed or two handed. It is a light weapon. It is so small that rules exist in second edition to open the combat round by throwing 2 shuriken with one hand as your first attack.


The 2 weapon fighting rules say:

Quote:
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

So shuriken are treated as light weapons for at least one part of the rules. It isn't a stretch to say they are light weapons for other rules as well.


So my next question would be why? And I'm asking because if your just looking for a larger shuriken, such as seen in anime then ask your GM to help you stat one.


An oversized shuriken like in anime is probably best represented by being a Starknife.

Still the damage dice aren't much. But then again, damage dice only matter at low levels really.

The important thing is, feats like Starry Grace exist, which lets you deal damage with your dex instead of strength.

Scarab Sages

avr wrote:
A huge or larger monk could use a colossal shuriken, yes. There's a limit of two size categories difference with oversized weapons.

That limit is only for Melee weapons.

Ranged weapons, like the Musket or Crossbow, cannot normally be wielded in larger forms. There is a teamwork feat for using a Large crossbow or firearm, via a 2-man team.

As for thrown weapons, their are rules for two handed throwing weapons, but anything beyond that is up to the GM.

As for the anime Giant Shuriken, remember that anime tends to repeat the names of weapons so it's easier for recognition. A greatsword and a longsword would likely be both referenced as swords in an anime, unless the distinction really mattered to the plot. In pathfinder, the defining trait of of the shuriken is how flimsy it is constructed, so I'd use a Starknife to represent any Larger (and therefor more durable) Shuriken. Plus, as a melee weapon, it's easy to scale up the Starknife.


Their are problems with using a starknife or something similar to represent a larger shuriken. Shuriken are treated as ammunition, the others are not. Drawing ammunition (and so shuriken) is a free action. The starknife and similar would require Quick Draw to do the same.

Shuriken are enchanted in batches of 50, while starknives are enchanted individually.

A larger than normal shuriken is still a shuriken for any abilities that only function with shuriken (I don't know of any, but they might exist). Starknives are not shuriken, so would not work.

Scarab Sages

Jeraa wrote:

Their are problems with using a starknife or something similar to represent a larger shuriken. Shuriken are treated as ammunition, the others are not. Drawing ammunition (and so shuriken) is a free action. The starknife and similar would require Quick Draw to do the same.

Shuriken are enchanted in batches of 50, while starknives are enchanted individually.

A larger than normal shuriken is still a shuriken for any abilities that only function with shuriken (I don't know of any, but they might exist). Starknives are not shuriken, so would not work.

Issue here is that Shuriken are ammunition, not weapons, so the ability to use oversized shuriken as oversized shuriken is iffy in rules. Expect Table Variation, as a GM could consider oversized Shuriken to be improvised thowing weapons.

And regarding enchantment, the Shruiken are destroyed when they are thrown, so saying you get 50 for the cost of 1, is misleading. And in anime, how many of those Giant Shuriken do most characters have in a given fight? Typically 1 at most in Naruto. Ten Ten would have more, but she isn't carrying them around.


At this point, it's clear to me there's no explicit ruling on this. The TWF ruling seems to just be for the sake of giving TWF throwers a known accuracy value.

My understanding is that an oversized ammunition item would still count as an ammunition item, regardless of it's size. For example, a medium creature can use a small bow and small arrow, the arrow still counts as ammunition. Therefore, size-tiers don't change it's item class from ammunition, meaning a Colossal shuriken should still be ammunition to a medium creature.

If the monk can draw a shuriken as free action because it's ammunition, then he still can if it's inappropriately sized. Shuriken seem to be this wacky exception because they're an ammunition for the purpose of drawing, but then they become a ranged weapon in all other cases.

So, you can whip out this giant thing, but throwing it still isn't clear. Since it's a ranged weapon, inappropriate size rules only really cover the case where a two-handed range weapon will elevate to unusable.

How does the oversize rule handle things like the Javelin? It is considered a Ranged weapon, but you're expected to throw them with one hand. How does a medium creature interact with a Large or larger Javelin?


I'm also starting to notice that a majority of these questions are a result of items from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox book. Maybe there exists some errata for this book that corrects these questions.

Scarab Sages

Axoren wrote:

At this point, it's clear to me there's no explicit ruling on this. The TWF ruling seems to just be for the sake of giving TWF throwers a known accuracy value.

My understanding is that an oversized ammunition item would still count as an ammunition item, regardless of it's size. For example, a medium creature can use a small bow and small arrow, the arrow still counts as ammunition. Therefore, size-tiers don't change it's item class from ammunition, meaning a Colossal shuriken should still be ammunition to a medium creature.

If the monk can draw a shuriken as free action because it's ammunition, then he still can if it's inappropriately sized. Shuriken seem to be this wacky exception because they're an ammunition for the purpose of drawing, but then they become a ranged weapon in all other cases.

So, you can whip out this giant thing, but throwing it still isn't clear. Since it's a ranged weapon, inappropriate size rules only really cover the case where a two-handed range weapon will elevate to unusable.

How does the oversize rule handle things like the Javelin? It is considered a Ranged weapon, but you're expected to throw them with one hand. How does a medium creature interact with a Large or larger Javelin?

No clue. I'm also unclear how oversized thrown weapons work, in general. I've been unclear if I can thrown an oversized club or dagger, despite it having a listed range increment.

You could reasonably infer that if a thrown weapon lists the melee weapon type it is consider (light, one handed, or two handed), that oversized versions would apply the same penalties to attack that would be applied to use in melee. So -2 for one size larger, -4 for two sizes larger, and anything that requires a step above two hands can't be weilded at all.

The GM could also, and also reasonably, infer that oversized ranged weapons were improvised weapons, as they are not designed to be used by such creatures. The improvised penalties are easier to avoid than the oversized ones, but the downside here is that magical enchantments and weapon specific abilties/feats won't apply unless they also apply to improvised weapons.

Last, the GM could just decided that you can't use oversized ranged weapons at all. This logic is commonly applied to oversized Projectile weapons (like oversized crossbows).

Scarab Sages

Axoren wrote:
I'm also starting to notice that a majority of these questions are a result of items from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox book. Maybe there exists some errata for this book that corrects these questions.

Honestly, I think the major of questions result from the CRB. That book has lots of issues, and I do think the original writters did the best they could have. It's just too much content, and it's the only book designed to stand alone. All the other pathfinder books, lean on that CRB, and it can't always bear the weight.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Oversized shuriken? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions