Dislodging Spider Climb

[lowericon]

What does it take to knock someone off a wall or the ceiling when they're using Spider Climb? A particular Strength check? Or a combat maneuver of some kind? What are the modifiers?

Also, can someone use Spider Climb to grip more securely to regular ground? If so, what kind of bonuses (if any) would it give their CMD vs. Trip, Bull Rush, Overrun, and other maneuvers?

[Jader7777]

Trip should work.

I don't think spider climb gives you any bonuses, some monsters have an ability called 'suction' that gives them a +10 to CMD to move them.

[toastedamphibian]

Damage works. Spider climb gives a climb speed, a +8 bonus on climb checks, and lets you autosuceed (essentially) on climb checks to move. Nothing else.

A climbing creature that takes damage must make a climb check equal to the surface dc or fall, which coukd be 25, 30, or higher.

They also cannot use a shield, and have to use both hands to climb.

If they are trying to "climb" along the ground, I'd say they are immune to Trip attempts by virtue of already being prone.

I could see giving crawling characters a bonus vs bullrush attemps.

Neither of these have anything to do with the spell though.

[Gauss]

toastedamphibian, generally forcing someone to make a climb check via damage will not knock them off the wall because they can take 10.

Assume for a moment that the subject has a climb bonus of 15 (+7 from ranks/ability and +8 for a climb speed).
Next, assume the DC is 25.
They take 10 and auto-succeed.

CRB p91 Climb skill wrote:

A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing.

[Murdock Mudeater]

lowericon wrote:

What does it take to knock someone off a wall or the ceiling when they're using Spider Climb? A particular Strength check? Or a combat maneuver of some kind? What are the modifiers?

Also, can someone use Spider Climb to grip more securely to regular ground? If so, what kind of bonuses (if any) would it give their CMD vs. Trip, Bull Rush, Overrun, and other maneuvers?

Basically, anything that would break contact between the target's feat and the thing they are climbing, would disrupt spider climb. Would be ultimately up to the GM.

No, spiderclimb doesn't affect your ability to "not climb". Still, could ask your GM when it comes up, and you might get lucky and gain a circumstance bonus.

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

toastedamphibian wrote:

If they are trying to "climb" along the ground, I'd say they are immune to Trip attempts by virtue of already being prone.

Being 'down' on all limbs, does not mean the same thing as being prone. A dog is always down on all 4 limbs, but they can still be tripped, a spider climbing on a wall could still have it's legs taken out from 'under' it with the appropriate Trip check. Without it's legs grabbing onto the wall it should fall.

The same should apply to a character using the spider walk spell on a wall, if you can reach them to trip they should fall with a successful trip attempt. (remember spider climb requires hands to be empty while climbing, so make sure your targets climbing up walls aren't trying to pull out somatic components to cast on you from safety) Also those empty hands would be used to climb, so you're tripping a 4 legged creature instead of 2 (assuming bi-pedal humanoid)

Additionally it doesn't seem like what you are specifically requesting, but Grease would be an effective counter to spider climb. At least as much as a DC 10 Save is, but it would utilize reflex for the initial save, or acrobatics to move through it full speed, vs the enhanced climb skill.

[BigNorseWolf]

You can just hit them. that forces another climb check. (they'll probably make it though)

[Glorf Fei-Hung]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You can just hit them. that forces another climb check. (they'll probably make it though)

"The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have its hands free to climb in this manner. The subject gains a climb speed of 20 feet and a +8 racial bonus on Climb skill checks; furthermore, it need not make Climb checks to traverse a vertical or horizontal surface (even upside down). A spider climbing creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing."

Unless it's been FAQ'd or specifically called out somewhere, I would rule this line applies to being hit as well as moving. If it doesn't need to make a climb check while changing hand/foot holds why should it need to make a climb check when it's hit with firm footing already?

[toastedamphibian]

Gauss wrote:

Assume for a moment that the subject has a climb bonus of 15

No. I refuse.

Seriously, yeah, if they took the effort to be good at climbing, and then used the spell, it will be alot harder to dislodge them. If they have a high cmd it will be hard to trip them.

If they are just relying on spider climb, though? Hit them.

[toastedamphibian]

Glorf Fei-Hung wrote:

toastedamphibian wrote:

If they are trying to "climb" along the ground, I'd say they are immune to Trip attempts by virtue of already being prone.

Being 'down' on all limbs, does not mean the same thing as being prone. A dog is always down on all 4 limbs,

Was unaware we where specifically worried about canine sorcerers.

If a human is moving on four limbs, i belive that is called crawling. In pathfinder, crawling is an action that you may take while prone. Thus, to me, holding on to ground with four limbs = prone, for bipedal 4 limbed creatures not noted as walking on their knuckles.

[toastedamphibian]

Quote:

If it doesn't need to make a climb check while changing hand/foot holds why should it need to make a climb check when it's hit with firm footing already?

Because that's what the spell specifically allows? Spell is good enough, I don't see any need to attribute more powers to it. It does what it says. Gives you a climb speed and lets you move without needing to roll.

All other rules apply normally.

Does not make you harder to push, or trip. Does not make you immune to falling. It provides no offensive nor defensive bonuses beyond what one can achieve by climbing a wall.

[Gauss]

toastedamphibian wrote:

Gauss wrote:

Assume for a moment that the subject has a climb bonus of 15

No. I refuse.

Seriously, yeah, if they took the effort to be good at climbing, and then used the spell, it will be alot harder to dislodge them. If they have a high cmd it will be hard to trip them.

If they are just relying on spider climb, though? Hit them.

Typically, my characters will have a +5-7 bonus in climb without trying too hard. I put a couple of points into climb on just about every character. Additionally, there are moderately long duration buff spells such as Heroism that my characters regularly have going.

Add the +8 from having a climb speed and yeah, 25 DCs are easy. :)

[toastedamphibian]

Yeah, far from impossible. If you invest alot of ranks, have high strength, and other magic buffs.

But a specific character could have focuses that counter other options as well.

If someone walks acrossed the ceiling and starts talking s~*& Hit Them. Might not work, but it might. If it does not, try something else to move them. Spider climb does nothing to hinder any of those things.

[Gauss]

Seriously, you wouldn't need a lot of ranks or a high strength or magic buffs.

1rank +3class skill + 3strength +8climb speed bonus = 15
15+take 10 = 25

[toastedamphibian]

Which many people casting spider climb still will not have...

[toastedamphibian]

At any rate, everyone but glorf more or less agrees that any method capable of removing any climber from a surface works equally well vs a character under the effects of spider climb, and that the spell does not increase your cmd nor make you harder to move, right?

I did not speak plainly enough in my initial post it seems. Sorry for any confusion or silly controversy, op.

[Yanndu]

What about slippers of spider climbing? No hands required... :)

[toastedamphibian]

Hmmm... never really looked critically at that item before. Had assumed it worked as the spell, but never actually calls it out.

List of effects:

Can climb vertical or horizontal surfaces without using hands if they are not slick.

Climb speed of 20ft. Which comes with the standard effects.

Never says anything about not needing to make that climb check though.

Would make grappling less effective at forcing them down, as they can use both hands instead of only one.

Much better for that 15+ climb check guy, less useful for flabby clerics with too much armor.

Makes Grease a sure-fire counter though.