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The exclusive trick prevents your critter from being commanded when they've been wild empathied or charmed. Both of which are something you'd have to deal with under the paradigm that the critter has to be willing to listen to you. THATS what exlusive patches, not some non existent rule that anyone can command your critter with a dc 10 check.
It also prevents commands when not wild empathied or charmed.
Neither Handle an Animal nor Push an Animal make any concession to the relationship between the commander and commanded. They can be friendly or hostile, and the check is exactly the same.
An animal with the Exclusive trick does not take trick commands from others even if it is friendly or helpful toward them (such as through the result of a charm animal spell)This seems to imply a rule that Handle Animal only lets you command creatures that are already friendly.
That rule doesn't actually exist, but it's probably worth house-ruling in.
It does not imply that. It might imply a +/- to the DC for the relationship. A houserule for +/- 2 or 5, however sounds fine.
Just to be clear, then, what exactly is your issue with my very first post in this thread?1) The implication that an animal normally needs the exclusive trick to prevent someone from issuing them commands. They don't.
They do. Being hostile, wild, and untrained, does not prevent a trick command from working if you make the DC.
I 100% disagree that I must rule the same regarding a trained, domesticated animal and a wild, untrained animal.
There is simply no support for that anywhere. Like, anywhere.
You mean like not even the Handle Animal skill description? :-)
There are two places called out in the skill that deal differently with this difference: Raising a wild animal, and Special(Untrained use). Using tricks is the same for both.Wild Empathy states: The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
Unless there is some special reason for being unfriendly, a guard dog is indifferent. Being aggressive while guarding is not being unfriendly.
/cevah
A Trained Gurd Dog is hardly a "typical domestic animal".
The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.How would you say that is indifferent, to me the special reason of "prevents others from approaching" is a Hostile attitude.
Given its cheap price, I would say it is readily available. If you want to rule it non-typical, that is up to you, but does not change the DC or effect. "Guarding" is a job the animal performs. If you don't approach, it may watch you, but it won't go for you if not on a leash. That would be "Attack", not "Guard". If it is hostile, it Will take risks to hurt you* and would attack. When Guarding, it is not doing this. Again, you can house rule it hostile, and again, it makes no difference to the DC.
/cevah
*Pulled from a 3.5 diplomacy table.
Can you tell me why my own animal companion is going to attack me because bob the peasant farmer made a DC 10 Handle animal check?
If you can point to something in the text that lays out any restriction on who can give commands to any animal that knows tricks, please do.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature.
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Given its cheap price, I would say it is readily available. If you want to rule it non-typical, that is up to you, but does not change the DC or effect. "Guarding" is a job the animal performs. If you don't approach, it may watch you, but it won't go for you if not on a leash. That would be "Attack", not "Guard". If it is hostile, it Will take risks to hurt you* and would attack. When Guarding, it is not doing this. Again, you can house rule it hostile, and again, it makes no difference to the DC.
/cevah*Pulled from a 3.5 diplomacy table.
You mean this table?
Hostile - Will take risks to hurt you. - Attack, interfere, berate, flee
Unfriendly - Wishes you ill - Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insul
Interfer is on the Hostile list.
The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.
It would Attack if approached, Preventing you from passing(Interfering with your progress).
If you can point to something in the text that lays out any restriction on who can give commands to any animal that knows tricks, please do.
You can't make a request (Handle Animal chech) of a creature Unfriendly, or Hostile.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature's current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers. Once a creature's attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion.
A Guard Dog would not Preventing you from passing would be against its nature. Because it knows it will be punished.
Can you tell me why my own animal companion is going to attack me because bob the peasant farmer made a DC 10 Handle animal check?
The animal attacks apparent enemies.
Are you an apparent enemy of your own AC? I don't think so. Thus it will not attack you. However, bob the peasant could get it to attack jack the other peasant.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature.
This is Wild Empathy, not Handle Animal.
You mean this table?
Since that is what I linked to, yes. :-)
If you can point to something in the text that lays out any restriction on who can give commands to any animal that knows tricks, please do.You can't make a request (Handle Animal chech) of a creature Unfriendly, or Hostile.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature. This is an additional Diplomacy check, using the creature's current attitude to determine the base DC, with one of the following modifiers. Once a creature's attitude has shifted to helpful, the creature gives in to most requests without a check, unless the request is against its nature or puts it in serious peril. Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion.A Guard Dog would not Preventing you from passing would be against its nature. Because it knows it will be punished.
The HA check has NO text restricting use due to hostility. You can use it on hostile animals.
Diplomacy is referenced under WE, not HA.
"Guard" is a trick the dog knows. If you can make the check to have it do a different trick, like "Down", "Fetch", or "Stay", it cannot do "Guard" at the same time, allowing you to pass freely.
Knowing it will be punished has no effect on the HA skill. If you make the check, it does the trick you command.
/cevah
It is barely logical and in many cases contradictory. Fortunately as Granta posted, the "Attack" command only works on "enemies." So Joe Commoner isn't going to get the animal to attack its master.
If you haven't noticed yet, this raw without any sense or discernment paradigm you're running is not how the rules are written, its not how they're meant to be read, and has a horrible track record of being right, providing an enjoyable game, or getting everyone on the same page.
So why do you keep insisting on using it ?
Except that is from the Diplomacy rules not the Handle Animal. Completely different skill. Diplomacy can be used as a substitute for Wild Empathy, not Handle Animal.
I'm sorry, was that context, something other than the raw itself you just had to use there?
The HA check has NO text restricting use due to hostility. You can use it on hostile animals.
Diplomacy is referenced under WE, not HA.
/cevah
You can't tell me that you don't know that Pathfinder Rules are not always fully explained under each rule. You have to look at all of them to see what is expected. Just because HA dose not have text, dose not mean you can ignore Diplomacy.
"You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
As written, there is no link between HA and Diplomacy, nor do I read any intention to link them or even cross-reference between the two.
Untrained: If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can't teach, rear, or train animals.
Why the above...
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
If a creature's attitude toward you is at least indifferent, you can make requests of the creature.
So typical domestic animals are indifferent, and can be Handed or Pushed. Wild animals are usually unfriendly so they can't.
If you look at all the rules there is a link.
"You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You are not using Diplomacy to handle an animal. But the levels of Diplomacy (Hostile to Helpful) are linked to using Handle Animals on an animal.
The rules are assumed to be read in context. Otherwise they tend to not work. Is the suggestion being made to ignore context?
You're attempting to fabricate your opinion into some general truth. It's not.
I'm attempting to get you to notice a pattern that when you insist on absolute raw and get a messed up answer that the answer winds up being what the people arguing for a saner position said it was all along. Frequently. Bordering on constantly.
This is a rules forum. This forum exist to discuss what the rules say, not how you want the game to be played.
And to know what the rules say you have to know how they say it. Absolute strict legalese isn't it. It IS the rules forum. It is not the rules lawyering forum.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say. There's no context. You quoted something from a rule section that has nothing to do with Handle Animal.
And it doesn't imply because....?
Maybe we should ask for an FAQ on how Handle Animal, Wild Empathy, relate to one another with a comparison to Diplomacy so we can have an official explanation on the topic.
Maybe we should ask for an FAQ on how Handle Animal, Wild Empathy, relate to one another with a comparison to Diplomacy so we can have an official explanation on the topic.
I can't think of a bigger waste of a FAQ request. I have more respect for Paizo's time than that.
I notice that when arguing RAW serves your agenda, you argue it. When it doesn't, you spout the hypocritical rhetoric that you're spouting now. Outside of that, no, what makes logical or common sense has little or nothing to do with how the PDT rules in many cases.
What I try to do is take into account raw, rai, sense, reason, evidence in different measures. Sense may have little or nothing to do with how the PDT rules things, but they use it more often than what you read as raw.
Something else that trumps all of those, of course, is playability.
Would it make the game better, or worse, if any random yahoo with a rank in a particular skill could cause a druid's animal companion to rend her into shreds of gnome jerky?
Maybe we should ask for an FAQ on how Handle Animal, Wild Empathy, relate to one another with a comparison to Diplomacy so we can have an official explanation on the topic.
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33 posts since my last comment. My apologies for my tardiness.
You mean like not even the Handle Animal skill description?I 100% disagree that I must rule the same regarding a trained, domesticated animal and a wild, untrained animal.
There is simply no support for that anywhere. Like, anywhere.
Exactly.
The only mention of wild animals within the Handle Animal skill description is in regards to rearing a wild animal.
Nothing in the skill description allows you to issue commands to a wild, untrained animal.
As a GM, I would never let that fly. That's what Wild Empathy is for.
I respect most of what BNW (usually thru his alias "Flutter") has contributed to the Animal Companion community, but on this issue we're diametrically opposed.
And we both claim it's "common sense". Go figure.
Serious question, what kind of circumstance penalties should be applied assuming handle animal can be used on a hostile or unfriendly animal?
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Serious question, what kind of circumstance penalties should be applied assuming handle animal can be used on a hostile or unfriendly animal?
Whatever you as a GM deem appropriate. Must usually, just a –2. Maybe –5 if the PC spends several resources.
Against a domesticated animal, there are no included examples.
Against a domesticated animal with the Exclusive Trick, you automatically fail.
Against a wild animal, you automatically fail.
EDIT: wait, did you mean "bonuses"? Maybe I didn't understand your question.
Serious question, what kind of circumstance penalties should be applied assuming handle animal can be used on a hostile or unfriendly animal?
I'd apply a negative infinity penalty to the die roll, myself. Along with a stern word of warning to the relevant player.
But at your table, you can apply any house rules you like.
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You mean like not even the Handle Animal skill description?I 100% disagree that I must rule the same regarding a trained, domesticated animal and a wild, untrained animal.
There is simply no support for that anywhere. Like, anywhere.
Exactly.
The only mention of wild animals within the Handle Animal skill description is in regards to rearing a wild animal.
Nothing in the skill description allows you to issue commands to a wild, untrained animal.
As a GM, I would never let that fly. That's what Wild Empathy is for.
I respect most of what BNW (usually thru his alias "Flutter") has contributed to the Animal Companion community, but on this issue we're diametrically opposed.
And we both claim it's "common sense". Go figure.
Handle Animal works on animals.
Animals are usually divided into wild and domestic.If the skill works on the general class, why would it not work on the subset called "wild"?
Both "wild" and "untrained" describe a variety of "animal".
The way you are arguing, you are equating "animal" = "domestic animal", which simply is not true.
Wild Empathy has no rules text regarding tricks. So how do you use WE to make it do a trick?
/cevah
Serious question, what kind of circumstance penalties should be applied assuming handle animal can be used on a hostile or unfriendly animal?
The Handle Animal skill imposes no penalties, RAW.
I recommend the usual 2/5 penalty for minor/major difficulty. [I.e. make the DC check a little higher.]
/cevah
Against a wild animal, you automatically fail.
Can you cite a rules source for that?
The reason you rule this way is the same reason people rule you can't order around someone elses critter.
Sense may have little or nothing to do with how the PDT rules things, but they use it more often than what you read as raw.People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
That isn't a response. At all.
me: Don't just read the raw. It doesn't work.
you: you read the raw wrong!
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Against a wild animal, you automatically fail.Can you cite a rules source for that?
The Handle Animal skill is written in the context of domesticated animals.
Wild Empathy is written in the context of wild animals.
The sole exception for Handle Animal working on wild animals is "rearing a wild animal".
Wild animals don't operate off of Tricks. That's purely for domesticated animals.
When you use Wild Empathy, you're making a Diplomacy check against an animal to either influence its attitude or ask a request.
Tricks never come into play.
If you can show me text, from anywhere, that allows you to use Handle Animal to issue commands to a wild animal (such as telling a wolf to fetch, or a Roc to bombarde), then I will happily acquiesce.
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The Handle Animal skill is written in the context of domesticated animals.
This isn't specified.
I say it's written in the context of a critter being disposed to listen to you (indifferent or better). Most domestic animals are disposed to listening to you, most wild animals are not.
Wild Empathy is written in the context of wild animals.
Definitely not. Wild Empathy
Wild Empathy (Ex)... The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
So wild empathy has provisions for working on domestic animals. The same to easier provisions really.
The sole exception for Handle Animal working on wild animals is "rearing a wild animal".
This is not an exception, at all, to a rule that doesn't exist. Its a place where the rules are different. The only stated difference is that you need a rank in handle animal to rear wild animals.
Wild animals don't operate off of Tricks. That's purely for domesticated animals.
This is based on...?
When you use Wild Empathy, you're making a Diplomacy check against an animal to either influence its attitude or ask a request.
Wild empathy technically only lets you improve the attitude. The rules are silent on how you make a request, or if you can.
If you can show me text, from anywhere, that allows you to use Handle Animal to issue commands to a wild animal (such as telling a wolf to fetch, or a Roc to bombarde), then I will happily acquiesce.
Can you show me text, from anywhere, that lets you use handle animal to issue commands to someone elses pet when it isn't friendly or better towards you? You're setting a standard of evidence that you're not following.
Against a wild animal, you automatically fail.Can you cite a rules source for that?The Handle Animal skill is written in the context of domesticated animals.
Wild Empathy is written in the context of wild animals.
The sole exception for Handle Animal working on wild animals is "rearing a wild animal".
You are forgetting Special.
If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can’t teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can’t teach, rear, or train other non-domestic animals.
Why does this say domestic animals when the handle and push sections don't? That is because those sections are NOT limited to domestic animals, and apply to ALL animals.
Wild empathy states it applies to "animals" not "wild animals". It even calls out the different starting attitudes of wild vs. domestic animals.
Playing your way removes half of Handle Animal and half of Wild Empathy because in one you argue "animal" = "domestic animal" and the other you argue "animal" = "wild animal". This is simply not the case.
Some animals are wild animals.
Some animals are domestic animals.
All domestic animals are animals.
All wild animals are animals.
Wild animals don't operate off of Tricks. That's purely for domesticated animals.
Prove it. Wild animals are animals, and the skill states you can push to make an animal do a trick it does not know.
When you use Wild Empathy, you're making a Diplomacy check against an animal to either influence its attitude or ask a request.
You cannot make a request.
A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person.
This calls out a specific part of Diplomacy, not the whole Diplomacy skill. You need some other way to make requests, since this does not do it.
Tricks never come into play.
True, since Wild Empathy is about attitudes and not about tricks.
If you can show me text, from anywhere, that allows you to use Handle Animal to issue commands to a wild animal (such as telling a wolf to fetch, or a Roc to bombarde), then I will happily acquiesce.
I have. You keep saying wild animals are not animals for the skill.
/cevah
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The Handle Animal skill is written in the context of domesticated animals.This isn't specified.
I say it's written in the context of a critter being disposed to listen to you (indifferent or better).
This isn't specified either.
/cevah
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Any rules reason why Handle Animal shouldn't work though?Because sanity and sense are a thing.
Option 1: Handle animal LETS you tell an animal that is relatively disposed to listening to you know what you want and gets them to do it.
Option 2: Handle animal makes an animal do something.
Option 2 is bloody nuts. You can make a dc 25 check to tell a mother lion to attack her cubs, or a mere dc ten check to make a horse attack their own knight. It obviates the entire wild empathy class feature and gives you more control over a creature than charm animal.
Handle animal convince an animal to do a trick. there is no trick for "attack your cubs". The attack trick start with: "The animal attacks apparent enemies". You can get it to attack a specific apparent enemy, but for most animals their cubs will never appear as an enemy.
I will allow people to try to make some trick work (stand down, as an example), with a modifier for the initial attitude and for commands from its owner, if he has one. I am not a druid in real life, but with time, patience, and maybe food, I can get some wild animal or stray cat to come to me.It should have the same limit as diplomacy. Even if some people try to claim otherwise, you can't use 1 minute and 1 roll of diplomacy to have a person murder his friends or his children.
You can play Iago (from Othello) and get someone to kill for jealousy or fear, but that will require a lots of skill checks and a lot of time.
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I would think both handle animal and wild empathy work similar to diplomacy, the first to improve a creatures attitude and the other to make a request. The time required to use each action reflects that.
One thing to keep in mind however is that handle animal doesn't cause a critter to become an automaton. You wouldn't use diplomacy to ask two guards to attack each other, so using handle animal to make a creature attack its benevolent master would obviously fail as well.
As handle animal is very similar to making a request, enforcing an indifferent (or better) attitude seems very reasonable, even if it is not explicitely mentioned in the rules. This means it could be used on all domestic animals, but for wild animals you'd either need to use wild empathy or find other ways to improve the creatures attitude first.
Wild empathy on the other hand causes animals to like you, but to actually make a request you would still need to use handle animal or some spell that enables communication.
I would think both handle animal and wild empathy work similar to diplomacy, the first to improve a creatures attitude and the other to make a request. The time required to use each action reflects that.
One thing to keep in mind however is that handle animal doesn't cause a critter to become an automaton. You wouldn't use diplomacy to ask two guards to attack each other, so using handle animal to make a creature attack its benevolent master would obviously fail as well.
As handle animal is very similar to making a request, enforcing an indifferent (or better) attitude seems very reasonable, even if it is not explicitely mentioned in the rules. This means it could be used on all domestic animals, but for wild animals you'd either need to use wild empathy or find other ways to improve the creatures attitude first.Wild empathy on the other hand causes animals to like you, but to actually make a request you would still need to use handle animal or some spell that enables communication.
I agree with this.
And by extension, if an animal was hostile (such as the hypothetical guard dog) then in order to get the dog to not attack you would need first wild empathy to improve it's friendliness level to at least indifferent (Rules are unclear, but there some hints that maybe handle animal should only work on friendly or helpful animals).
HA works on any animal or magical beast that knows tricks.
Handle Animal does not work on magical beasts, since they are not animals.
I would think both handle animal and wild empathy work similar to diplomacy, the first to improve a creatures attitude and the other to make a request. The time required to use each action reflects that.
Handle Animal does nothing about attitude. It does tricks.
Wild Empathy does nothing about making requests. It does attitude....
And by extension, if an animal was hostile (such as the hypothetical guard dog) then in order to get the dog to not attack you would need first wild empathy to improve it's friendliness level to at least indifferent (Rules are unclear, but there some hints that maybe handle animal should only work on friendly or helpful animals).
The rules for the Handle Animal skill say nothing in respect to attitude. The DCs are right there for making it do a trick. You don't need to change the attitude to make the trick work. The rules are clear. People want to make changes to take into account the attitude, but that is house ruling.
/cevah