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This question isn't so much about organized play PFS as it is about the actual lore of PFS, so this question may not be best suited for this forum. But I figure the people most likely to know the answer would be here, and it technically is a Pathfinder Society question.
Anyways, on to the actual question. To what lengths do Pathfinders care about outsiders (as in non-society members, not non-natives) having a wayfinder?
In some cases, however, certain magic items are so identified with the Pathfinders that when they fall into the hands of others, Pathfinders make efforts to reclaim them—certainly this is true of the distinctive wayfinders.
A badge of office for agents of the Pathfinder
Society, a wayfinder is as much a handy tool as a status symbol.
It's pretty plain that they're meant only for society agents. But I would like my PCs (non-agents) to be able to get resonant abilities of ioun stones in my Rise of the Runelords campaign.
Wayfinders are small magical devices patterned after ancient relics of the Azlanti.
Are there any other items that grant resonant powers? This implies there should be something out there, after all, if wayfinders were patterned off of an ancient relic(s) then there's got to be more out there.
What's an appropriate way to let my PCs have something that will resonate without them becoming pathfinder agents?
Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I think it would be fairly easy to get a normal wayfinder if you are not a Pathfinder. Getting one of the special ones, such as the Shining Wayfinder associated with the Silver Crusade, would be more difficult.
Pathfinders would certainly ask questions of someone having one, and may offer to purchase it from them. I wouldn't suggest flashing it in the middle of a Pathfinder Lodge.
Is there any reason they couldn't just join the Pathfinder Society?
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** spoiler omitted **
I'd definitely considered that, but I didn't want to "force" membership on them if there was an alternative to be found.
My Non-PFS Rise of the Runelords alchemist, Eddie, got his discerning Wayfinder after we met up with a certain famous Pathfinder in Magnimar. I think he might have been willing to join up had she asked, but he got it as a favor.
I was considering doing something like that. I gave the boss to chapter one an ioun stone and thought that the PCs asking around to get a wayfinder might pique her interest once they got to Magnimar.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Enough to steal it back but not enough to kill for it? Unless it was like, a treasured momento to a family member?
Based on my understanding (and how I typically treat the matter when working on scenarios), this is a pretty good baseline. A wayfinder serves as a badge of office in addition to its magical properties, so anyone running around with one is inadvertently representing the Pathfinder Society—a situation that could seriously damage the organization's reputation. On top of that, the wayfinder is somewhat proprietary technology in-world, and the Society has a stake in reserving that advantage for its agents (both as a magical edge and as a perk of joining). As BigNorseWolf speculates, the Society cares little if someone has his grandmother's wayfinder on the mantle as a memento. If that same person then takes up the adventuring life using the wayfinder, any Pathfinder he runs into would likely ask him to refrain from using the device or (better) honor his ancestor's memory by joining the Society, too.
Either way, I wouldn't consider a wayfinder appropriate gear for a non-Pathfinder or someone not on the path to becoming a Pathfinder.
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As far as 'incorporating resonant powers'?
This also could make adventurers more likely to wear such things, which in turn gives the GM some... useful information that said GM can use to ensure some NPCs are prepared for the party...
Given that there are enough areas where waving a wayfinder around openly will get you killed, I don't think stealing one has that much appeal. And if you don't know their base function as a compass, it's not going to do you any good that a lantern would otherwise.
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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The description mentions that they're based off of Azlanti relics; could the party not find one of those relics, which isn't marked with the Glyph of the Open Road like a standard wayfinder is?
Someone might. Keep in mind that being based off an Azlanti relic doesn't necessarily mean that the relic was a wayfinder with different serial numbers. The logic of wayfinders being based off another relic could follow the same logic that a clockwork soldier is based off a grandfather clock. The principles overlap, but the execution and scope are very different.
Doing so would likely involve a trip to old Azlant or uncovering a rare cache of Azlanti devices elsewhere. It would likely also involve performing the same reverse-engineering of the device to create something that harnesses resonance in the same way. It's certainly something a specially trained (Craft Wondrous Item at the very least) PC might manage with time and GM discretion. If that's the sort of story your group would like to tell, it's certainly within the realm of possibility. Within the context of the Pathfinder Society, I imagine it would be rather extraordinary if someone replicated the same innovation independently.
My opinion is that the pathfinders hate being impersonated just like any other society would. You can dress up like a cop or a soldier or the president... but they get pretty upset about that. Make too many waves and they'll come after you, but if they never hear about it then they naturally wouldn't.
Some things to remember...
1) Pathfinders die... a LOT. Therefore there should be a lot of wayfinders floating around in loot piles. I'm sure they would pay nicely to keep them off the market, but if you pull one from a dragon horde, they have no rights to it... So the wayfinders are out there. The market value is only 500 gp.
2) My group found one in the black market of Riddleport but it was pretty expensive for us. Much more then 500 gp... grrr.....
3) Wayfinders aren't THAT awesome. At least not the basic ones. 1) Compass. 2) Casts Light. 3) can use ioun stones... but those don't take slots and you can use them all the time anyway.
The vast majority of the Wayfinder power is just NOT having that stone flying around your head... AND being able to impersonate a Pathfinder. So the question really boils down to, 'Is it important enough to annoy the society to not have that floating around my head?'
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There is another item, somewhere, that grants resonant powers when an Ioun Stone is slotted inside. I can't for the life of me remember where.
It's either found in Carrion Crown, Iron Gods, Shattered Star, or a module somewhere. I remember the GM describing it as being just like a Wayfinder.
My vagueness probly doesn't help you, but at least you could create your own item in a similar fashion, and know that it's not a unique creation.
There is another item, somewhere, that grants resonant powers when an Ioun Stone is slotted inside. I can't for the life of me remember where.
It's either found in Carrion Crown, Iron Gods, Shattered Star, or a module somewhere. I remember the GM describing it as being just like a Wayfinder.
My vagueness probly doesn't help you, but at least you could create your own item in a similar fashion, and know that it's not a unique creation.
Shattered Star has something, but it's pretty plot specific and can't be bought, picked up or found anywhere else..
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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Enough to steal it back but not enough to kill for it? Unless it was like, a treasured momento to a family member?Either way, I wouldn't consider a wayfinder appropriate gear for a non-Pathfinder or someone not on the path to becoming a Pathfinder.
Good to know. I'll have Eddie join up with the Pathfinders at some point, and get the job of sending notes back to Sheila of his progress. Considering that his notes will all have gruesome anatomical sketches* of the monsters he's killed, this will be fun.
Hmm
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*It's a home game, and he's a vivisectionist alchemist. He's very serious about his monster anatomical studies!
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Good to know. I'll have Eddie join up with the Pathfinders at some point, and get the job of sending notes back to Sheila of his progress. Considering that his notes will all have gruesome anatomical sketches* of the monsters he's killed, this will be fun.
Hmm
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*It's a home game, and he's a vivisectionist alchemist. He's very serious about his monster anatomical studies!
Perhaps that's what drives her over the edge and makes her start doing seriously shady things?
Is there anything stopping somebody from simply making a Wayfinder? Their construction requirements are easily met by a wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Such a Wayfinder, if it could be made, would not be mistaken for an insignia of the Pathfinder Society because it would lack any markings that would associate it with that group.
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Is there anything stopping somebody from simply making a Wayfinder? Their construction requirements are easily met by a wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Such a Wayfinder, if it could be made, would not be mistaken for an insignia of the Pathfinder Society because it would lack any markings that would associate it with that group.
While there's no in game mechanics for it, wayfinders have some funky ancient azlanti magical tricks to them that are, in world, harder to pull off than well known things like extradimensional space.
Is there anything stopping somebody from simply making a Wayfinder? Their construction requirements are easily met by a wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Such a Wayfinder, if it could be made, would not be mistaken for an insignia of the Pathfinder Society because it would lack any markings that would associate it with that group.
Lack of knowledge on how they are made is the killer. Especially if you are in a campaign where the GM requires that you have formulas/design/pattern/ etc. for the specific item you want to create.
Some GM's don't go with the implication that learning an item creation feat gives you total knowledge on how to create that class of item.
While there's no in game mechanics for it, wayfinders have some funky ancient azlanti magical tricks to them that are, in world, harder to pull off than well known things like extradimensional space.Is there anything stopping somebody from simply making a Wayfinder? Their construction requirements are easily met by a wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Such a Wayfinder, if it could be made, would not be mistaken for an insignia of the Pathfinder Society because it would lack any markings that would associate it with that group.
Then that potentially gives my GM an adventure hook, since in our current campaign we have had no contact with the Pathfinder Society at all -- and my PC definitely wants to possess a certain Ioun Stone and have it in a more secure place than orbiting her head.
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Then that potentially gives my GM an adventure hook, since in our current campaign we have had no contact with the Pathfinder Society at all -- and my PC definitely wants to possess a certain Ioun Stone and have it in a more secure place than orbiting her head.
You can always implant them.... They have to take it OUT of your cold dead hand that way.
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You can always implant them.... They have to take it OUT of your cold dead hand that way.
Then that potentially gives my GM an adventure hook, since in our current campaign we have had no contact with the Pathfinder Society at all -- and my PC definitely wants to possess a certain Ioun Stone and have it in a more secure place than orbiting her head.
Orrrr your cold dead head... or your cold dead shoulders... the possibilities are only limited by bodily real estate...
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this happened in a home game a while back, so maybe is out of place on the PFS board, but it makes a nice story - and shows how some groups might have Wayfinders....
Setting is: the Group of PCs (who happen to be "delivery men") discover a old ruined temple. Shortly after entering the "old ruins", they are ambushed (without warning) by a group of adventurers from hiding.
Player #1:"who the heck are these guys and what kind of people just attack without warning?"
Player #2: "Pathfinders!"
Player #3: "Damn Murder Hobos..."
Player #4: "Check the bodies for Wayfinders..."
GM: "You find three..."
Player #2: "Damn! That means there's 1 to 3 more of these Vagrants around here somewhere..."
Later - as the party is "fencing" loot... "How much can we get for these things anyway? 250g.p.? or only half what the Agents paid for them?"
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Player #4: "Check the bodies for Wayfinders..."
GM: "You find three..."
Player #2: "Damn! That means there's 1 to 3 more of these Vagrants around here somewhere..."
You found 3 bodies and 3 wayfinders? The must be Aspis Agents impersonating pathfinders. When is the last time you sat down to PFS and more than half the PCs had wayfinders?
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Enough to steal it back but not enough to kill for it? Unless it was like, a treasured momento to a family member?Either way, I wouldn't consider a wayfinder appropriate gear for a non-Pathfinder or someone not on the path to becoming a Pathfinder.
Really? Wayfinders strike me as a classic tool for any adventurer. Like something to pair with a swiss army knife. They'd be more common on pathfinders, if only because pathfinders buy them as discount, but I'd expect them for most adventurers.
I mean, just the basic one functions as a compass, holds an ioun stone, and provides the user with a light source. And there are variations for every situation. Seems weird that only a single organization would put them to use.
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Really? Wayfinders strike me as a classic tool for any adventurer. Like something to pair with a swiss army knife. They'd be more common on pathfinders, if only because pathfinders buy them as discount, but I'd expect them for most adventurers.
I mean, just the basic one functions as a compass, holds an ioun stone, and provides the user with a light source. And there are variations for every situation. Seems weird that only a single organization would put them to use.
It is noted in *several* places that the Society tries to guard the ancient Azlanti magitech behind the Wayfinder Principle harder than Karzoug holds onto a coin.
As a result, they should be *exceptionally rare* outside of the Society, and it's more likely to run into other items (anytool, burnt ioun torch, etc, etc) than the comparatively expensive Wayfinder, imo?
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One regular wayfinder to show to folks who only know about those. One Discerning wayfinder because alchemists need Detect Magic love too. And one with a Clear Spindle carried somewhere the pickpockets won't get to.
Holy crap, that's so much better then spending an investigator talent (or a feat to get an extra talent) to take the rogue talent to get it as a cantrip. I can't believe I wasn't aware of this option already.
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There is one early scenario that has a non-pathfinder with a Wayfinder in it. #0-13 "Prince of Augustana" - and though the VC in the briefing says something like "We don't think this guy is a Pathfinder, but until we find out for sure, we're treating him as one of ours." and there is no mention in the scenario of removing the Wayfinder from "the Prince"...
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When I played Skull and Shackles we got our hands on a couple of Wayfinders when two fellows on a ship we took had them.
But when we sold off the plunder in the nearest town, a place called 'Bloodcove', the merchant there we were ransoming the fellows to offered to pay us twice the going rate for the Wayfinders, so we sold them off.
He was such a nice merchant!
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Some of mine carry two!So do some of mine, but for a different reason.
Wow. Mark comes across as unnecessarily aggressive in that thread.
So then, when you have the boon that reduces the PP cost to upgrade your Wayfinder when adding a special enhancement... It means when "purchasing" a new one, instead?
I'll have to look through my characters. Some might be due for a free Wayfinder.
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As a result, they should be *exceptionally rare* outside of the Society, and it's more likely to run into other items (anytool, burnt ioun torch, etc, etc) than the comparatively expensive Wayfinder, imo?
I've mentioned before, that the hideously underpriced anytool is probably found on every working class NPC, 3rd level and higher. Just too practical as written.
"Exceptionally" rare, huh? Seems iffy. I mean, first off, if most pathfinders have these "exceptionally" rare and extremely useful magic items, seems like pathfinders would be hunted for item drops....500gp each, sold back to the market at half value, so a party of 4 pathfinders is, at minimum, worth 1000gp. And the pathfinders are probably carrying more than just that in equipment and loot. That's enough to consider pathfinders as having a bounty on their heads, and enough for neutral NPCs to consider attacking pathfinders without other reasons.
With manufactured goods, it should always be more practical buy something, than to hire people to kill those who have them and loot it from their corpses. That should be common sense to the Pathfinder Society. Especially since they hail from Absolom, the city where everything can be bought.
Carrying a wayfinder openly is considerably more likely to make you a target of the Aspis and other groups that hate the Society more than the Society itself. Although if a Pathfinder has gotten missing in that area, you might get an unscheduled visit from folks who'd like to know how you got the one in your posession.
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Then after they get to Magnimar Sheila can request an audience. She could be asking for information about why she doesn't know who they are (i.e. she thinks they're pathfinders because they have a wayfinder) and either asking for it back or offering it to them in return for favors or the like.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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One regular wayfinder to show to folks who only know about those. One Discerning wayfinder because alchemists need Detect Magic love too. And one with a Clear Spindle carried somewhere the pickpockets won't get to.Holy crap, that's so much better then spending an investigator talent (or a feat to get an extra talent) to take the rogue talent to get it as a cantrip. I can't believe I wasn't aware of this option already.
Lantern of auras will let you identify magic items at a distance, and let people with Spellcraft but without detect magic attempt to identify them as well.
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Or a wand is cheap if you have a decent UMD.
Definitely true, I tried out an empiricist for the first book of Hell's Rebels and thought it'd be better for my character to just have the rogue talent. But specifically for PFS, 5PP is doable.
I ended up dipping Sleepless Detective, but that was largely because my Investigator was made during the playtest, when Empiricist wasn't available. So it got me Int to several skills (on top of Charisma), sneak attack, and the Detect Magic SLA.
Um, I find I break classes less if I restrain myself to not multiclassing, definitely a good idea overall, though. That would especially work for the aforementioned character because you can gain Alertness as a free bonus feat in that part of the AP (not considering that a spoiler because that info is in the Player's Guide)
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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As a result, they should be *exceptionally rare* outside of the Society, and it's more likely to run into other items (anytool, burnt ioun torch, etc, etc) than the comparatively expensive Wayfinder, imo?I've mentioned before, that the hideously underpriced anytool is probably found on every working class NPC, 3rd level and higher. Just too practical as written.
"Exceptionally" rare, huh? Seems iffy. I mean, first off, if most pathfinders have these "exceptionally" rare and extremely useful magic items, seems like pathfinders would be hunted for item drops....500gp each, sold back to the market at half value, so a party of 4 pathfinders is, at minimum, worth 1000gp. And the pathfinders are probably carrying more than just that in equipment and loot. That's enough to consider pathfinders as having a bounty on their heads, and enough for neutral NPCs to consider attacking pathfinders without other reasons.
With manufactured goods, it should always be more practical buy something, than to hire people to kill those who have them and loot it from their corpses. That should be common sense to the Pathfinder Society. Especially since they hail from Absolom, the city where everything can be bought.
My opinion: Once you being looking at the setting through the filter of an MMORPG—namely where you can go to "farm" loot from "mobs"—you've diminished the setting. Once the Society realizes that there's a serial killer on the loose killing Pathfinders in order to steal their "rare drops," there's a good chance the Grand Lodge would mobilize a potent team to hunt down the murderer...no matter what level range or instance he's in.
As for being able to buy anything (more true in Katapesh than Absalom, I reckon), even that's deceptive because certain equipment is really rare or protected. That's true for Numerian technology, Thassilonian magic items, wayfinders, and more.
The prices are listed in several supplements, so the items are open for purchase by any PC (falling under always available items) and probably any home game PC. They are a little pricey ($250 in PFS for a compass with a light spell) and some ioun stone interactions can be a little powerful but ioun stones are no slot (2*price) items.
Wayfinders IMO are more a themed item that ties into the pathfinder concept and brand.
Assuming the existence of ioun stones and resonance, wayfinders provide a greater benefit than their 500 gp cost would suggest. That's something for a home game GM to consider before allowing wayfinders as an easily accessible item. Keeping it as a perk of joining the Society helps develop the setting for the players and helps the GM manage predict the PCs' power.
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There is one early scenario that has a non-pathfinder with a Wayfinder in it. #0-13 "Prince of Augustana" - and though the VC in the briefing says something like "We don't think this guy is a Pathfinder, but until we find out for sure, we're treating him as one of ours." and there is no mention in the scenario of removing the Wayfinder from "the Prince"...
There is no mention of removing the wayfinder because
Plus, I hear
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My opinion: Once you being looking at the setting through the filter of an MMORPG—namely where you can go to "farm" loot from "mobs"—you've diminished the setting. Once the Society realizes that there's a serial killer on the loose killing Pathfinders in order to steal their "rare drops," there's a good chance the Grand Lodge would mobilize a potent team to hunt down the murderer...no matter what level range or instance he's in.
So, roleplaying question: If PFS is unwilling to share their Wayfinders, and some pathfinders find themselves surrounded by bandits demanding their wayfinders or death. Is the wayfinder to be considered more valuable than the life of a pathfinder?
I understand that we shouldn't discard the wayfinder casually, but the PFS guide has not expressed the life or death aspect of protecting the wayfinders. Is this something we need to be role playing?
My opinion: Once you being looking at the setting through the filter of an MMORPG—namely where you can go to "farm" loot from "mobs"—you've diminished the setting. Once the Society realizes that there's a serial killer on the loose killing Pathfinders in order to steal their "rare drops," there's a good chance the Grand Lodge would mobilize a potent team to hunt down the murderer...no matter what level range or instance he's in.
So, roleplaying question: If PFS is unwilling to share their Wayfinders, and some pathfinders find themselves surrounded by bandits demanding their wayfinders or death. Is the wayfinder to be considered more valuable than the life of a pathfinder?
I understand that we shouldn't discard the wayfinder casually, but the PFS guide has not expressed the life or death aspect of protecting the wayfinders. Is this something we need to be role playing?
That's a stilted scenario proposition. I really can't imagine a random group of bandits looking specifically to steal wayfinders save as part of a blanket "give us all your stuff" demand. Most players in that scenario would sell their lives to protect th(eir "stuff") While Aspis Agents might want wayfinders to pose as Pathfinders, they'd probably just kill the Pathfinders anyway.
Keep also in mind that Society wayfinders have inscriptions that identify whom they belong to. They serve as a form of ID between Society members and those that are allied. So if someone has nicked your personal wayfinder, you have incentive to recover it.
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I understand that we shouldn't discard the wayfinder casually, but the PFS guide has not expressed the life or death aspect of protecting the wayfinders. Is this something we need to be role playing?
You hand the wayfinder over.
You report the loss to the venture captain.The venture captain sends you and some friends, or some higher level than you people out to get it back, with varying degrees of murderhoboey retaliation expected