If a paladin with the Iroran Paladin archetype (or its open content version, the Enlightened Paladin) takes a dip in Lore Oracle for Sidestep Secret, would the abilities stack? It is technically adding the same ability score bonus twice, but it seems odd for the features to weaken the character in combination.
At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, an Iroran paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. This ability replaces his proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.
Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.
Less importantly, is there any way for a character to have two patron deities so that Celestial Obedience (Arshea) can be thrown in as well?
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Relevant FAQ says no.
Simply put, Enlightened Paladin adds your Charisma to Dexterity for the purposes of calculating AC (heck, it doesn't even apply to CMD, per RAW). Sidestep Secret substitutes Dexterity for Charisma altogether, meaning the Enlightened Paladin would add your Charisma to your Charisma for the purposes of calculating AC.
Similarly, if you receive the Divine Grace benefit of the Enlightened Paladin and attempted to utilize Sidestep Secret's Reflex Save Bonus increase, they wouldn't stack as in both instances, you are adding your Charisma Modifier to AC.
The big benefit of dipping Paladin (especially Enlightened Paladin) is to not have to take stuff like this so your defenses don't suck nuts, so you can instead get better stuff.
I was inclined to think they could stack:
CHA to DEX (AC purposes only)
CHA to ACI was reading it as an inflated DEX bonus to AC and a CHA bonus to AC. Similar to an enhancement bonus to armor and an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
Both situations provided would work, the former of which would be the case with, for example, a Scaled Fist Monk and an Enlightened Paladin. (Which seems cool and is definitely worth trying for a campaign...)
Adding your Charisma modifier to your Dexterity modifier to AC still works, because you're merely improving your Dexterity modifier through adding your Charisma modifier. Of course, this means that your new Dexterity modifier to AC (which I imagine would also apply to CMD, but RAI would suggest no) is likewise limited by things that rely on it, such as being Flat-footed, and having a Maximum Dexterity Bonus with your current armor. It merely improves your existing Dexterity Bonus, which is already typed, by an amount equal to your Charisma modifier, which does not overwrite the existing type.
But it is not the same as the OP's situation, which is using Charisma in place of Dexterity, and then using Charisma as a flat improvement to his Charisma (which was Dexterity, but was changed into Charisma).
Even reversing the equation, the result is the same: You're still getting your Charisma modifier to AC twice. The difference here is that your example follows the restrictions of Dexterity while still maintaining being typed as a Dexterity Bonus. In the OP's example, that Dexterity Bonus is changed to a Charisma Bonus (and he only adds Maximum Dexterity Bonuses and Armor Check Penalties because the rules specifically say so).
I hope that helps explain it.
The abilities don't stack, but not because of the FAQ(for the record, I agree Confident Defense changes the Dexterity modifier though).
With Sidestep Secret you're using your Charisma score instead of your Dexterity score, and if you aren't using your Dexterity score for Armor Class anymore, then you can't apply Confident Defense.
while still maintaining being typed as a Dexterity BonusThat isn't likely to be correct.
Especially considering the rules with ability swaps count as the new ability and not the old. So if you can use Int on Acrobatics, it isn't a Dex skill check any more.
But Confident Defense doesn't change the type associated with the bonus to AC. (That bonus also applying to CMD is possible, but per RAW, it doesn't apply.) It simply increases it for the purposes of determining what benefit it provides by an amount equal to your Charisma modifier. It's still categorized as a Dexterity bonus, and as such still follows the rules governed by it.
So, if I'm flat-footed, the Charisma bonus being added to my AC goes away, and if I wear armor, the Maximum Dexterity Bonus applies to the new value generated through adding your Charisma, because you're still receiving a Dexterity Bonus. It's just a modified Dexterity Bonus.
Sidestep Secret is the one that changes the type of bonus you're being granted, and as such, requires RAW to dictate you apply MDB and ACP and other associated subjects to the Charisma modifier you're using (which it has), otherwise you wouldn't follow those rules, because it's no longer a Dexterity Bonus.
@ Azten: Nice catch, I didn't think about it that way, and as such is another (although hair-splitting) reason why the OP's combination doesn't work.
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So, the consensus is that Steadfast Personality will not work for a paladin who already gets to add his Charisma bonus to all saving throws? Our party's Paladin was thinking of getting this feat and our GM was thinking it would work (based on the 'adding <> replacing' line of thought)...
On a related 'stacking Charisma' topic, my Oracle in the same campaign will be getting Desna's 'Startlit Caster' obedience in another 5 levels or so and I was wondering how 'You add your Charisma bonus on your concentration checks' from that power is supposed to work with a Charisma-based caster? RAW it seems like it shouldn't work at all, but it also seems like Bards, Sorcerers, and Oracles would make up a fairly significant number of Desna's devoted worshippers. Honestly, I'm more focused on the 'bonus to beating SR checks' so I'm not exactly losing sleep over this, but it does seem a little odd (admittedly, I believe the obedience precedes the FAQ ruling by a good margin, so it might just be unintended collateral damage and the original RAI was that the ability stacks).
Looking at the FAQ I'm inclined to say that Steadfast Personality isn't a good pick for a regular paladin.
Alright, so an Oracle dip won't work, but I can get a similair benefit from a dip in Scaled Monk, and if I can find a DM friendly to a character with multiple deities I could squeeze in Devoted Muse as well (last I checked this was a pretty contentious topic). Thanks for the help.
From what I can tell, for Taja's question, Steadfast Personality would not stack with Divine Grace (sadly). I have no idea on the Starlit Caster part of the question. It seems like it would help a Cleric of Desna, which may have been the intent. At least you'll still get the bonus against SR.
So, the consensus is that Steadfast Personality will not work for a paladin who already gets to add his Charisma bonus to all saving throws? Our party's Paladin was thinking of getting this feat and our GM was thinking it would work (based on the 'adding <> replacing' line of thought)...
On a related 'stacking Charisma' topic, my Oracle in the same campaign will be getting Desna's 'Startlit Caster' obedience in another 5 levels or so and I was wondering how 'You add your Charisma bonus on your concentration checks' from that power is supposed to work with a Charisma-based caster? RAW it seems like it shouldn't work at all, but it also seems like Bards, Sorcerers, and Oracles would make up a fairly significant number of Desna's devoted worshippers. Honestly, I'm more focused on the 'bonus to beating SR checks' so I'm not exactly losing sleep over this, but it does seem a little odd (admittedly, I believe the obedience precedes the FAQ ruling by a good margin, so it might just be unintended collateral damage and the original RAI was that the ability stacks).
That is correct. The bonuses will not stack because they are considered the same type of bonus.
Same goes for the obedience. Thing is, Deific Obediences were written before the FAQ was (as far as I know), so my guess is that the obedience was written with the assumption that they would stack, even though FAQ says no. In other words, it's a trap.
@ James Risner: Subjective in comparison to what?
You cited "Int to Acrobatics" as an argument, even though that requires substituting the ENTIRE Dexterity Bonus to Acrobatics, to be replaced by your ENTIRE Intelligence Bonus (and therefore is no longer subject to things like Armor Check Penalty, because it's not a Dex-based Skill).
So tell me, are you saying that's what you do in relation to Confident Defense? That you substitute your ENTIRE Dexterity Bonus to AC (and therefore aren't subject to MDB, ACP, and so on) with your ENTIRE Charisma Bonus?
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@Darksol, I'm saying that what you think is RAW others may not agree and share an alternative version. Often these alternative versions are left as is and a FAQ merely says "this is what that text means, adjust your interpretations to match". Mind you, this is different than the FAQ that contain Errata where they admit the text should be changed.
Also often when things are replaced, the new stat is limited just as the old. So you might have to worry about Max Int now that you replaced your Dex for Int.