Okay, so from what I understand: its possible to cast a spell with a target of "you" on a familiar as a touch action. With this, you can have a familiar act as a viable combat pet using this, though there's one thing I'm not sure of.
You see, I'm not sure whether the bonus from turning into a dragon stacks with the bonus from the increase in size or not. Nor am I sure if in the cases of Form of the Dragon II if the bonus of Medium to Large is included in the number listed or not.
Let's say for example that I turn a Fox Familiar (Tiny with a Strength of 9) into a Medium Dragon with Form of the Dragon I, will their strength be increased by the +4 the spell states? Or will it be +12 from the +8 size increase from Tiny to Medium?
... And either way, what would the result be with Form II? +6 as the spell says? +14 to account for the difference between Tiny and Medium? Or do you add the size bonus for the size change from Medium to Large as well?
Also... I have no idea if I'm using the right chart for size increases. The only chart I've got to work with is the Monster advancement chart.
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use this rule from magic section in core book.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
link http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html
use this rule from magic section in core book.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.link http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magic.html
I've been here enough it just remembers. Table on the right. Short answer, you go Tiny->Small (+4 Str, -2 Dex) then apply whatever the spell tells you to.
Long answer, first you normalize your size (moving to Small or Medium, whatever is closer). Then you apply the spell. Actually, that's not much longer, though it'll be way longer if I need to explain normalize.
Ah, okay. So the spell also has the same effect on small as on medium. Wasn't sure of that.
So the final bonus to the familiar would be +8 for Form I, +10 for Form II, and +14 for Form III.
Thanks, this will be useful.
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also a note, even though it's getting a con bonus, it's not going to have more HP, since it's HP is based on your HP.
also a note, even though it's getting a con bonus, it's not going to have more HP, since it's HP is based on your HP.
True, however it does also gain an AC bonus to natural armour, which I imagine stacks with the AC bonus for a Familiar of that level. And since you'll be in relatively higher levels by the time you get the spell, the Familiar should be able to handle itself for a little while.
That does make me wonder though... What happens on the familiar end in terms of HP if after casting it on the familiar you also cast it on yourself?
if your HP goes up your familiar's HP goes up. You rage, it gets 1 HP per your HD. casts bears endurance, +1hp per level.
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In this situation, it's the Familiar that is getting the CON bonus, as the spell is being cast on it. So no HP bonus.
I'm also not positive that the natural armor bonus applies. It depends on how it is worded. Form of the Dragon just says you gain a +4 natural armor bonus. Not that it increases your normal natural armor bonus by 4. So I think you'd take the higher of the two, instead of stacking.
Take barksin as another example. It provides an enhancement bonus to your natural armor and states that it stacks with your existing natural armor. Form of the Dragon does neither of those two things.
So if your familiar has a +3 natural armor bonus normally, it would go up to +4, not +7. At least that's the way it looks to me, unless there's something in the polymorph rules that I'm missing.
the issue is that a familiar of x level has a bonus to it's armor.
Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is in addition to the familiar's existing natural armor bonus.
So does this bonus persist when it transforms or not is the question.
the issue is that a familiar of x level has a bonus to it's armor.
Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is in addition to the familiar's existing natural armor bonus.
So does this bonus persist when it transforms or not is the question.
I'm guessing that in this situation, the "existing" Natural Armour Bonus would be that of what's provided by the spell, given if the polymorph rule is anything to go by, its treating the new form as its new base.
So in theory, the idea is to change the base Natural armour bonus, and then add the Natural Armour adjustment from being a Familiar the way you would have added it on top of its original form if it already had a natural armour value.
Presumably.
The alternative is to assume that the natural armour implied by the spell is working on the same logic as the previous bonuses to STR and CON given its worded the same, which may imply that its "a bonus to natural armour" rather than having you "set your natural armour bonus to [x]".
Either way, probably doesn't change much.
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Ah. I see. Then it may indeed stack.
EDIT:
So if I understand it right, it would work something like this.
A fox has a +0 base natural armor. Being a familiar is granting it +3 on top of its base. Using Form of the Dragon changes the base to +4. Total natural armor bonus +7.
An imp has a +1 base natural armor. Being a familiar is granting it +3 on top of its base. Using Form of the Dragon changes the base to +4. Total natural armor +7 (not +8).
Ah. I see. Then it may indeed stack.
EDIT:
So if I understand it right, it would work something like this.A fox has a +0 base natural armor. Being a familiar is granting it +3 on top of its base. Using Form of the Dragon changes the base to +4. Total natural armor bonus +7.
An imp has a +1 base natural armor. Being a familiar is granting it +3 on top of its base. Using Form of the Dragon changes the base to +4. Total natural armor +7 (not +8).
Yes, that's the view of the familiars natural armor boost being not dependent on their original form.
The other view is it's saying that the familiar's natural armor increased by X. So your cat has natural armor, but that it's form dependent. I'm a tough cat, not a creature that has magic somehow constantly increasing my base Natural armor.
I'm inclined to think the latter, that the natural armor adjustment is to the base creature and not transferable if you change forms. But there's nothing RAW to force either view to be wrong.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Nothing in RAW details how this works regarding Natural Armor.
The way that makes sense to me is the natural armor bonus is increasing the base animal's natural armor. If you wear a amulet of natural armor, that grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor. Once your familiar polymorphs, the base animal and the familiar bonus is replaced by the form of the dragon spell's natural armor and the amulet of natural armor adds to that value.
Ah. I see. Then it may indeed stack.
EDIT:
So if I understand it right, it would work something like this.A fox has a +0 base natural armor. Being a familiar is granting it +3 on top of its base. Using Form of the Dragon changes the base to +4. Total natural armor bonus +7.
An imp has a +1 base natural armor. Being a familiar is granting it +3 on top of its base. Using Form of the Dragon changes the base to +4. Total natural armor +7 (not +8).
Yes, that's the view of the familiars natural armor boost being not dependent on their original form.
The other view is it's saying that the familiar's natural armor increased by X. So your cat has natural armor, but that it's form dependent. I'm a tough cat, not a creature that has magic somehow constantly increasing my base Natural armor.
I'm inclined to think the latter, that the natural armor adjustment is to the base creature and not transferable if you change forms. But there's nothing RAW to force either view to be wrong.
Your explanation of the latter is in direct contradiction with the general assumptions of Familiars. Mainly that Familiars share a magical bond with the magic user in question, which is why Familiars are classified as Magical Beasts rather than Animals; and why you can share senses, and cast spells through them.
Its simple to assume that the Natural Armour Adjustment is an extension of this, as the higher energy levels provided by a stronger Wizard or Sorcerer can reasonably account for why the AC bonus increases with the character's level. Not to mention, there are already magical effects with provide similar AC bonuses.
Or to put it another way: if the Familiar was capable of achieving that level of AC without the magical influence from being bound to a Wizard, then why is it based on the Wizard's level rather than determined independent of their level?
Nothing in RAW details how this works regarding Natural Armor.
The way that makes sense to me is the natural armor bonus is increasing the base animal's natural armor. If you wear a amulet of natural armor, that grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor. Once your familiar polymorphs, the base animal and the familiar bonus is replaced by the form of the dragon spell's natural armor and the amulet of natural armor adds to that value.
This too doesn't sound reasonable when you consider the magical connection nature of being a familiar. A familiar who's body has changed shape does not suddenly loose their magical connection to their host; so why would they loose the magical benefits increasing their AC this way?
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Side note: I don't know what I got it, but at some point I picked up the head canon that Familiars are technically considered an extension of their Wizard's soul. Kind of like Personas from the series of the same name, or Stands from Jojo's Bizarre adventure.
The difference between Familiars and those however typically comes across as a matter of binding that splintered fragment of soul to the material plane; usually requiring a physical vessel to contain it so that it can persist on without passing on to the next life. Which is why your typical familiar is an animal or other living entity, a living vessel is well adapted for containing soul fragments.
This also partly explains some of the Advanced Familiars being Outsiders typically derived from souls of the dead, because in a way that's part of what their soul's form would take once its strong enough to remain physical without a vessel to contain it.
I see it as magically making the cat tougher. Not magically making whatever form it's in tougher. I believe that didn't come across clearly before.
Like I said, with the rules as they are there's nothing that covers this situation. And the closest thing to this is the DD that gets Natural armor boosts and if those work when polymorphed or not, which also has no rules covering it.
I see it as magically making the cat tougher. Not magically making whatever form it's in tougher. I believe that didn't come across clearly before.
Like I said, with the rules as they are there's nothing that covers this situation. And the closest thing to this is the DD that gets Natural armor boosts and if those work when polymorphed or not, which also has no rules covering it.
Given that a Familiar will loose the bonus if the bond is severed, the "making the cat tougher" part doesn't sound like the right assumption.
Picture the AC bonus as being provided as a stream of energy moving from the Wizard to the familiar. If the Wizard disowns the familiar, that stream stops and the AC bonus disappears.
Meanwhile, if the Familiar suddenly changes forms, that stream of energy is still in place, its not disrupted. And at that point since its not currently in its normal form, there's no "cat form" present at that moment to make into "a tougher cat" as you put it, only a familiar in dragon form. And since the cat form isn't present, the energy providing that AC bonus has to go somewhere, so it has to therefore go into the dragon.
With the rules themselves not clarifying the situation, I find it safe to fall back on the implied thermodynamics of the situation.
Edit: to put it another way, it makes more sense to treat a magical bonus to Natural armour as being independent of form. Since Magic in and of itself is independent of form.
Or look at animal companions. That are also improved and not at all part of the wizard and there's no constant stream of energy. With the bond my horse has different stats and more AC than a normal horse.
The number noted here is an improvement to the animal companion's existing natural armor bonus.
The number noted here is in addition to the familiar's existing natural armor bonus.
To me these both do the same thing. Makes the animals natural AC higher. But it's still that animals Natural AC and something they'd lose if polymorphed.
Or look at animal companions. That are also improved and not at all part of the wizard and there's no constant stream of energy. With the bond my horse has different stats and more AC than a normal horse.
The number noted here is an improvement to the animal companion's existing natural armor bonus.
The number noted here is in addition to the familiar's existing natural armor bonus.
To me these both do the same thing. Makes the animals natural AC higher. But it's still that animals Natural AC and something they'd lose if polymorphed.
I'm not convinced that the two scenarios are interchangeable. Note the subtle wording difference:
Natural Armor Adj.: The number noted here is in addition to the familiar's existing natural armor bonus.
The number noted here is an improvement to the animal companion's existing natural armor bonus.
To a rules lawyer, this is the difference between adding the bonus after the fact, and a static improvement.
Also, keep in mind, even with that made clear; the in universe explanation of magic stream can still work in either case given the kinds of classes that generally gain access to Animal Companions or inherent mounts. Which is to say, in the case of Druids, Paladins, and Rangers. All three of which have divine magic available to them at a certain level.
The one outlier is also the only case that is not going to be subject to this spell, a Cavalier mount. Since unlike in other cases, their mount does not gain "Share Spells".
That said, you are causing me to doubt my stance. However, I've had to argue from worse positions before.