| Fundin Strongarm |
I'm thinking of making a 2 weapon fighter and came up with the following build. Please let me know if I am missing anything obvious or if you have any tips on what I might change or add. Thanks.
Human 20 point buy
S18, D16, C12, I8, W12, Ch8 and would pump Dex at levels 4, 8 and 12
Brawler Archetype using a cestus
Level 1: TWF, Weapon Focus, Double Slice
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Stand Still
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Improved Initiative
6: ITWF
7: Lunge
8: Improved Critical
9: Critical Focus
10: Greater Weapon Focus
11: Pin Down
12: Greater Weapon Specialization
13: GTWF, Two Weapon Rend (substitute for Stand Still)
14 Staggering Critical
15: Sickening Critical
16: Critical Mastery
17: Stunning Critical
18-20:??
My level 5 feat could be swapped for Iron Will, Blindfight or Dodge. It would also be the feat I'd skip if I played a different race. I'm also not 100% on the level 14-16 feats.
Any traits to look for?
Was also thinking of straight fighter with kukri and use the Focused Weapon, Armed Bravery and Fighter's Reflexes features. Which might work out better?
Last thought would be to skip greater two weapon fighting at level 13 and have the 2 Dex pumps at 8 and 12 be Strength instead.
Any help appreciated. Thanks.
| Tyrant Lizard King |
Definitely take Blind Fight at some point.
Feats to consider:
Deadly Stroke
Combat Patrol
Impaling Critical (to punch inside enemies, Cestus does Piercing)
Also, maybe drop 4 levels into Monk or Monk of the Iron Mountain. Plenty of bonus feats for unarmed fighting at 1st level, Flurry of Blows, Still Mind class feature to qualify for Monastic Legacy feat at 3rd level, +10ft movement speed and Wis bonus to AC and CMD with additional +1 (raise WIS at higher levels for more). This would net you 2d6 unarmed strike damage in the end and a Ki Pool.
Monk's Robes would increase max unarmed strike damage to 2d8 and add +1 to AC.
| BigNorseWolf |
There's no point in not putting your int and wis at 7. 1 skill point per level is 1 skill point with a 7 or 8. You can't make a charisma check with a -1, so a -2 won't hurt you any at all.
Two weapon fighting rarely works out to be as effective as people hope. You're spending feats and a very stiff dex requirement to sometimes be as effective as a two handed weapon user IF you full attack and if your first attack doesn't kill them.
For the first reason, the ranger works a lot better.
| Claxon |
So, for what it's worth the Brawler archetype isn't really a great idea.
Because you're giving up Weapon Training (which with the Gloves of Dueling are better than the Close Combatant ability) and locks you out of Advanced Weapon Training.
Which has things like:
Trained Grace (Ex) When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.
Any fighter archetype that gives up weapon training is basically useless (IMO) since advanced weapon training options are so good.
In fact, core fighter is a really strong option because of all the great options to trade things out for.
With this option:
Armed Bravery (Ex) The fighter applies his bonus from bravery to Will saving throws. In addition, the DC of Intimidate checks to demoralize him increases by an amount equal to twice his bonus from bravery. The fighter must have the bravery class feature in order to select this option.
You can tank your wisdom and still have great will saves, especially when combined with the Sash of the War Champion.
| Gwen Smith |
Have you considered the Unchained Rogue as a basis for a two-weapon fighter? Getting weapon finesse and dex-to-damage as class features makes the high dex requirement much less painful. If you can flank, you'll also have the benefit of sneak attack on each attack, also.
However you build it, consider a one-level dip in barbarian or bloodrager. The +10 movement will help you get into position faster, adding +2 attack/damage on each hit will increase your damage output, and a Furious weapon will kick that up by 2. (If you go the dex route, you can do an Unchained Barbarian or Urban Barbarian to get the bonus.)
| Claxon |
Also, personally I would hold off on double slice and two weapon rend until later levels when you can pick up both, because double slice really isn't a very good feat.
Outslug style can be really great though, when combined with lunch to create a surprisingly large area denial zone. You would have to bump your int up, but you can honestly afford to change things around to:
STR: 14 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 13 WIS: 11 CHA: 7
Most of your damage will be from the damage bonus from Weapon Training/Trained Grace/Outslug Style, so you don't need to worry about strength as much.
Because fighter has trained grace, I would honestly not pursue the idea of rogue dup for dex to damage, it just isn't worth it when you have a build in method of getting an even better damage bonus.
| Gavmania |
The main problem with TWF is that it really needs a good damage boost to keep it up with THF (Two Handed Fighting). THF gets x1.5STR damage on all iterative attacks and requires minimal Feat investment and SAD (Single Attribute Dependency; in this case STR); TWF requires multiple Feat investment, gets x1STR and x0.5STR Damage (and on a lower base damage) and suffers from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency; in this case STR and DEX; although more Feats can reduce your STR Dependency to 13 which is enough for power attack). Further they get -2 to hit on all attacks, though they do Get an extra attack. The extra attack is not enough by itself to bridge the gap.
Bridging the gap requires a source of significant extra damage; hence the suggestion to go for Rogue which provides Sneak attacks.
TWF Fighters are still viable for flavour purposes; if it's what you want to play then go play it. They don't completely suck and a little bit of suboptimal choices makes a more interesting character.
| Claxon |
Unnamed Hero
Human fighter (mutation warrior) 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 93)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 20, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +2 deflection, +6 Dex, +2 dodge, +1 natural)
hp 112 (12d10+36)
Fort +13, Ref +14, Will +15 (+4 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 cestus +20/+15/+10 (1d4+27/19-20) or
+1 cestus +20/+15 (1d4+22/19-20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon trainings (trained grace, close +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +10; CMD 35 (39 vs. disarm, 39 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Focus (cestus), Greater Weapon Specialization (cestus), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Lunge, Outslug Sprint, Outslug Style, Outslug Weave, Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (cestus), Weapon Specialization (cestus)
Skills Perception +14
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ mutagen (+6/+4/-2, +4 natural armor, 120 minutes), mutagen discoveries (greater mutagen, wings[UM])
Other Gear +2 mithral kikko armor[UC], +1 cestus[APG], +1 cestus[APG], gloves of dueling[APG], sash of the war champion[APG], 30,740 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Armor Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Weapon Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Wings (12 minutes/day) - 0/12
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Armed Bravery (+6/+12) (Ex) Add bravery bonus to will save, Intim. DC to demoralize you increases by amount shown.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Greater Mutagen (Su) The alchemist’s mutagen now grants a +4 natural armor bonus, a +6 alchemical bonus to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), and a +4 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score. The alchemist takes a –2 penalt
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Mutagen (DC 17) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 120 minutes.
Outslug Sprint (Cestus) Outslug Style: move 5 additional feet during 5' step.
Outslug Style +2 (Any Close Weapon, Cestus) +1 dodge bonus to AC/dmg with chosen weapon.
Outslug Weave (Cestus) Outslug Style: no -2 AC penalty to use Lunge.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Trained Grace (Weapon Training [Close] +4) (Ex) When using Weapon Finesse, double training bonus on damage rolls.
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Wings (12 minutes/day) The alchemist gains batlike, birdlike, or insectlike functional wings, allowing him to fly as the fly spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his caster level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-min
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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
| lemeres |
So, for what it's worth the Brawler archetype isn't really a great idea.
Well, it isn't a great idea without preparation. At its heart, it is an effective archetype for lockdown builds.
Obviously, yes, you can't get the simpler will boost from armed bravery. Troublesome, but not definitive. A half elf with the two minded alt trait, along with iron will an maybe a will boosting triat... yeah, they can make the cleric jealous at times with their will save.
So it is possible to patch that one up. Heck, I could even see dumping double slice to do so (it is only a semi nice feat WAY later when you have a ton of str).
Archetypes that are not compatible with the advanced weapon training stuff are not as attractive as before, but they can certainly still be quite viable.
| Claxon |
(with mutagen active)
Unnamed Hero
Human fighter (mutation warrior) 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 93)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 32, touch 20, flat-footed 24 (+7 armor, +2 deflection, +6 Dex, +2 dodge, +5 natural)
hp 112 (12d10+36)
Fort +13, Ref +17, Will +14 (+4 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 cestus +23/+18/+13 (1d4+29/19-20) or
+1 cestus +23/+18 (1d4+23/19-20)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon trainings (trained grace, close +4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 31, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +12; CMB +12; CMD 40 (44 vs. disarm, 44 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Focus (cestus), Greater Weapon Specialization (cestus), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Lunge, Outslug Sprint, Outslug Style, Outslug Weave, Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (cestus), Weapon Specialization (cestus)
Skills Perception +13
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ mutagen (+6/+4/-2, +4 natural armor, 120 minutes), mutagen discoveries (greater mutagen, wings[UM])
Combat Gear mutagen (greater)[APG]; Other Gear +2 mithral kikko armor[UC], +1 cestus[APG], +1 cestus[APG], gloves of dueling[APG], sash of the war champion[APG], 30,740 gp
--------------------
Tracked Resources
--------------------
Armor Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Mutagen: Dex +6, Str +4, Wis -2, Int -2, +4 Nat AC. - 0/1
Weapon Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Wings (12 minutes/day) - 0/12
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Armed Bravery (+6/+12) (Ex) Add bravery bonus to will save, Intim. DC to demoralize you increases by amount shown.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Greater Mutagen (Su) The alchemist’s mutagen now grants a +4 natural armor bonus, a +6 alchemical bonus to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), and a +4 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score. The alchemist takes a –2 penalt
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Mutagen (DC 16) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 120 minutes.
Outslug Sprint (Cestus) Outslug Style: move 5 additional feet during 5' step.
Outslug Style +2 (Any Close Weapon, Cestus) +1 dodge bonus to AC/dmg with chosen weapon.
Outslug Weave (Cestus) Outslug Style: no -2 AC penalty to use Lunge.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Trained Grace (Weapon Training [Close] +4) (Ex) When using Weapon Finesse, double training bonus on damage rolls.
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
Wings (12 minutes/day) The alchemist gains batlike, birdlike, or insectlike functional wings, allowing him to fly as the fly spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his caster level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-min
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
| Claxon |
Well, it isn't a great idea without preparation. At its heart, it is an effective archetype for lockdown builds.
I would agree with you if it looked like he was going for a maneuver lockdown build, but that wasn't the sense that I got. And you really have to be aware of what you're trying for at that point.
| lemeres |
Another note- it is still possible to do str based TWF while grabbing the 13 int needed for outslug and a bit of wisdom too. The beginning spread for human/half human is:
STR: 16 (14) DEX: 16 CON: 13 INT: 13 WIS: 13 CHA: 7
The str and dex can be interchanged as desired. Starting with 16 dex is important, since you can just dump the bonus from level 4 onto dex and then forget the stat entirely to focus on str.
EDIT:
lemeres wrote:I would agree with you if it looked like he was going for a maneuver lockdown build, but that wasn't the sense that I got. And you really have to be aware of what you're trying for at that point.
Well, it isn't a great idea without preparation. At its heart, it is an effective archetype for lockdown builds.
....he did build for lock down though?
He took Stand still early. That is a rather conscious choice with a brawler, since it gives you that a bonus feat later on (although you can take the feat early and cash the built in stand still for just another bonus feat later).
Taking the feat early shows that he plans to take advantage of the brawler archetype's 'no escape' ability as soon as it comes online at level 9. 'No Escape' turns almost all forms of movement away from you into the AoO drawing movement needed for stand still. The class then later gives bonuses to the stand still maneuver so that it is enough that you can even mess with beefy opponents.
The large bonuses to a maneuver that isn't part of the improved/greater series is the main reason why the brawler archetype is still one of the viable fighter archetypes that ditches weapon training. Because the only other option for a fighter to beef up stand still would be lore wardens. And lore wardens don't come in with options like 'no escape' that allows for stand still to fulfill this role (I think there might be a feat for this that comes on a few levels later).
The brawler's design built for lock down is why it is still a good archetype- it fulfills a role (prevents enemies from moving, along with debuffing their options to hell) and it makes enemies stay close enough for full attacks (and in some ways, it is incompatible with outslug since it loves enemies being adjacent).
| BadBird |
TWF works fine on a Fighter when they're stacking Weapon Training, Gloves of Dueling, and Weapon Specialization onto their damage at the very least. Effortless Lace means you can use two large weapons without any added penalty, which is quite useful for increasing TWF damage with something like dual falcata. The main issue for TWF isn't really that it's inferior damage, but that you're spending more feats while typically doing about the same damage.
You never really need more than 17DEX to go TWF, since taking Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for a single -10 offhand attack really isn't super relevant.
The Dervish Fighter Archetype allows full attacks while moving at level 11, which is a huge deal for a higher-level TWF character.
There are a lot of options by now for doing a TWF Fighter that are a little more interesting than the basic version. The Trained Grace ability from the Weaponmaster's Handbook makes a TWF Fighter with high DEX and medium STR very powerful. Or an Elven Fighter can use Elven Battle Focus to make a very dangerous DEX/INT Fighter.
And of course, multiclassing can do some very interesting things, like using some Monk for crossing Crane Style and Dragon Style while wielding a sword in your mainhand and making Dragon Style unarmed strikes with your offhand. Or going Fighter/Rogue with Shatter Defenses to unleash a ton of bonus Sneak Attack damage without needing to be sneaky about it.
| BadBird |
Dual Talent Human also makes it easy to start with multiple high ability scores, since you can grab +2 to both STR and DEX.
A really interesting way to overcome ability issues is to take a level of Urban Barbarian or Urban Bloodrager, since Controlled Rage or Controlled Bloodrage lets you take +2STR/+2DEX and doesn't lose any AC or mess with CON. Extra Rage is easy to afford with all the feats a Fighter gets, and the ability to use two Furious weapons is a major bonus as well. Urban Bloodrager also still grants Fast Movement.
| Blave |
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If you want two-weapon fighting, consider using a double weapon, preferably a two-bladed sword. I think those are overlooked far too often. They combine the best of both combat styles (Two-Weapon and Two-Handed) and have decent damage dice. You can use them with both hands for single attacks (charge, attack of opportunity) and switch to many TWF-attacks for full attacks. Works pretty good with the fighter's flat damage bonuses (Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training). They'll also deal a bit more damage on average thanks to their larger damage die.
I don't think GTWF is worth it. It's basically an additional attack at -12, which is a pretty big penalty. I'd stop at ITWF and Dex 17. Would also allow you to get your Strength to 20, which improves your overall performance and rend damage.
Also, I agree with dropping the archetype. You REALLY want weapon training and gloves of dueling. Close combatant is one of the better substitudes because of the extra damage, but gloves of dueling will grant the same damage while also completely negating the TWF attack penalty.
| Lady-J |
Dual Talent Human also makes it easy to start with multiple high ability scores, since you can grab +2 to both STR and DEX.
A really interesting way to overcome ability issues is to take a level of Urban Barbarian or Urban Bloodrager, since Controlled Rage or Controlled Bloodrage lets you take +2STR/+2DEX and doesn't lose any AC or mess with CON. Extra Rage is easy to afford with all the feats a Fighter gets, and the ability to use two Furious weapons is a major bonus as well. Urban Bloodrager also still grants Fast Movement.
urban barb could net a +to str, dex or con but not 2 at the same time unfortunatly
| Alex Mack |
Savage Technologist Barbarian solves all your STR and DEX needs.
Something I've been fiddling with recently is a TWF switch hitter. This allows you to get even more attacks and most importantly: make your full attacks reliably. Your melee damage will be slightly behind a specialized melee build on full attacks but still competitive and your ranged damage output is better than that of a traditional TWF. Fighter works well for this as it easily has enough feats and to hit bonuses to support this style. But you will have to pump both DEX and STR high like so:
STR 17 DEX 17 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 7
You need the following feats in that order:
TWF, ITWF
Quick Draw, PBS, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Ricochet Toss (alternatively Blink Back Belt), Rapid Shot
The 8 feats above can be acquired by level 6 as a human. Using daggers and Deific Obedience Pharasma is also a good choice as is a level dip into the Sentinel PrC. Weapon Focus, Specialization and Improved Critical are well worth your time as is trained throw later on. I'd consider going weapon Master and possibly dipping Barb, Medium or Warpriest to shore up will saves and get major to hit and damage bonuses.
| BadBird |
urban barb could net a +to str, dex or con but not 2 at the same time unfortunatly
When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she applies a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2.
And yeah, Savage Technologist is ridiculously good for that purpose. For some reason, I don't like citing it; probably because it just feels too obscure/good.
| MageHunter |
Just gonna jump in here, it isn't really that painful for a fighter to balance between STR and DEX. It isn't necessary to go full DEX TWF, as you get nice bonuses to AC, reflex, initiative, etc. Probably the biggest buff is attacks of opportunity with combat reflexes. That's my favorite part of TWF and can really get milked with the improved trip chain or something like that. Your strength can still end up ridiculously high and competitive.
I second double weapons. Pretty versatile. For combat maneuvers my personal favorite is the dire flail. In fact my favorite TWF build is Lore Warden for all the maneuvers.
Greater TWF isn't really that good so max 17 DEX will cut it.
For actual equipment choice something that adds damage dice is neat. Like flaming, holy, etc. It all adds up quickly. I hear a lot of support for slayers since they have full BAB and sneak attack to add up on attacks.
Might be too much of a change but Warpriests make great natural TWF builds. Their bonus feats ignore the BAB prerequisites, and their class features are TWF friendly. (Fervor doesn't need a free hand)
| Claxon |
Most importantly, with trained grace on a fighter you don't really need to invest that much into strength. You get to double your weapon training damage bonus, including the bonus you get from Gloves of Dueling.
At level 9 when your weapon training grows to 2 and with the gloves you'll be getting 8 points of damage (4 extra than you would have otherwise gotten). That's like have a strength score 8 higher.
Plus, you add in mutation warrior and now you can increase dex and strength both.
People are way too focused on dex to damage builds, or how to get around dex requirements for TWF but honestly with the AWT options it's not necessary. Split dex, str, con for decent numbers and you'll be fine (see my builds above).
| Fundin Strongarm |
Thanks for all the great suggestions. A couple things. I'd prefer not to take a 7 in Int/Cha or other stat. I suppose 7 in one would be okay but then I'd rather a 10 in the other in that case. I'd also not like to pick the mutation warrior, though Claxon's suggestions do look interesting.
I'm noticing a couple things in a few of the suggestions that somewhat seem to work at cross purposes and I just want some clarification.
A few of you have mentioned just going to Dex 17 for ITWF and not worrying about GTWF. This would imply pumping Str more. However, a few of you have mentioned Trained Grace which seems to imply pumping Dex and perhaps leaving Str at 16 (or even 14). Trained Grace doesn't look like it would work with double weapons either.
It looks like Gloves of Dueling would be a must for a straight fighter build.
One of the reasons I took Brawler Archetype was to try to avoid the problems with not being able to get full attacks. I felt it better than the Dervish, Mobile or Two Weapon Archetypes or using the Step Up feat chain. I'm open to going straight fighter with a kukri (or something) but would want some options to being able to get full attacks reasonably often. Would Stand Still and Pin Down be enough?
I took Double Slice since I figured my Str would be decent and opens up Two Weapon Rend but I'd be ok with dropping them if there are better options. I would also be fine dipping into a class if it gave good options. I've heard Barbarian, Rogue and Monk so far.
| lemeres |
One of the reasons I took Brawler Archetype was to try to avoid the problems with not being able to get full attacks. I felt it better than the Dervish, Mobile or Two Weapon Archetypes or using the Step Up feat chain. I'm open to going straight fighter with a kukri (or something) but would want some options to being able to get full attacks reasonably often. Would Stand Still and Pin Down be enough?
Only if you went with a lore warden for that feat combo that replaces the brawler stuff.
Stand still is a feat that uses a maneuver in order to stop the enemy's movement, allowing you to keep them in full attack range. But it is a maneuver without those convenient improved/greater feats that add bonuses to the check. As such, the maneuver would just be BAB+STR(or dex, if you get agile maneuvers).
While that might stop casters from escaping, it would not be enough for stopping bigger, beefier foes (some of which might also be dangerous casters, such as dragons).
That is why you would want an archetype that can add onto the stand still maneuver. Brawler eventually adds 1/2 level to stand still and a few of the 'no, you go where I want you' maneuvers. Lore warden adds 1/2 level to maneuvers in general. Either of those would suffice, since they can add a max of +10 to the check.
| Fundin Strongarm |
I was talking in PMs with someone and they pointed out that the Dervish of Dawn Archetype only gives up Advanced Armour Training, allowing me to keep AWT. This would allow me to move and get almost full attacks With Rapid Attack at level 11 and take some nice AWT abilities. I'd drop Double Slice early on for Weapon Finesse and then take Trained Grace at level 9.
I suppose I'd take Dex at 18 at level 1 and continue pumping it.
Would that be a better option?
| Claxon |
Thanks for all the great suggestions. A couple things. I'd prefer not to take a 7 in Int/Cha or other stat. I suppose 7 in one would be okay but then I'd rather a 10 in the other in that case. I'd also not like to pick the mutation warrior, though Claxon's suggestions do look interesting.
I'm noticing a couple things in a few of the suggestions that somewhat seem to work at cross purposes and I just want some clarification.
A few of you have mentioned just going to Dex 17 for ITWF and not worrying about GTWF. This would imply pumping Str more. However, a few of you have mentioned Trained Grace which seems to imply pumping Dex and perhaps leaving Str at 16 (or even 14). Trained Grace doesn't look like it would work with double weapons either.
It looks like Gloves of Dueling would be a must for a straight fighter build.
One of the reasons I took Brawler Archetype was to try to avoid the problems with not being able to get full attacks. I felt it better than the Dervish, Mobile or Two Weapon Archetypes or using the Step Up feat chain. I'm open to going straight fighter with a kukri (or something) but would want some options to being able to get full attacks reasonably often. Would Stand Still and Pin Down be enough?
I took Double Slice since I figured my Str would be decent and opens up Two Weapon Rend but I'd be ok with dropping them if there are better options. I would also be fine dipping into a class if it gave good options. I've heard Barbarian, Rogue and Monk so far.
Mutation warrior is a strong option, but if you'd rather not take it I understand. That said, I would still personally steer away from Brawler because it replaces both weapon training and armor training. You can just go without an archetype and pickup some Advanced Armor Training options.
Double weapons would work fine with trained grace, if there are any double weapons capable of being used with finesse. Your original weapon choice is what I went with, but any light weapons in the close weapon would work exactly the same on the build i posted.
If you grab Outslug Style, Lunge, Step Up, Following Step you would likely be able to full attack often once you engage an enemy.
Personally, I don't think most dips are worth it, especially not rogue or monk. Without something very specific in mind, multiclassing is usually a bad idea.
| dark78660 |
Take the Fighter's Finesse AWT and you can use weapon finesse with any weapon from the chosen weapon group even if they cant normally be used with weapon Finesse, that includes double weapons :D Fighters got so much love with the Weapon Masters Handbook!
Lvl 1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
Lvl 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Lvl 3: Double Slice
Lvl 4: Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training (weapon group)
Lvl 5: Advanced Weapon Training Feat -> Fighters Finesse
I love Two Weapon Fighting, but I always hated the idea of the big dumb beat stick characters, my most interesting TWF build (hes a scholar) involved Lore Warden Int/Str build that dual-wields longswords Using Str to hit and Int to Damage aswell as Int to AC from a 2 lvl dip into Student of War, hes great at combat maneuvers and he also becomes a bit of a skill monkey :D
Don't limit yourself to the conventional TWF builds already out there, there are so many new more interesting options, you just need to look for them or let them find you!
| BadBird |
One rather unique dual-wield build I've been thinking about trying is an 'Ascetic/Dragon with two swords' thing, where you can apply the Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity bonuses to dual-wielding temple swords or 9-ring broadswords. Something like:
Black Dragon Blades
Master of Many Styles Monk 1/ Dervish Fighter 12
Dual Talent Human: 15/17(+1)STR, 14/16(+1)DEX, 14(+1)CON, 10INT, 14WIS, 8CHA
1F. Two-Weapon Fighting / +F: Weapon Focus: 9-Ring Broadsword
2MMS. (+IUS) / (+Stunning Fist) / +MMS: Ascetic Style
3F. Dragon Style / +F: Enforcer
4F.
5F. Dragon Ferocity / +F: Intimidating Prowess
6F.
7F. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting / +F: Ascetic Form
8F.
9F. AWT: Defensive Weapon Training / +F: Elemental Fist
10F. *AWT= Weapon Specialist: Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical
11F. Combat Style Master / +F: Shaitan Style
12F.
13F. AWT= Armed Bravery / +F: Shaitan Skin
On a basic level, you're swinging two Effortless Lace 9-rings around that each deal 1.5xSTR, while your first hit every round is 2xSTR.
For special abilities, Enforcer lets you damage enemy saves (Monk Unarmed Strike nonlethal ability applies to swords), which helps Stunning Fist and Shaitan Skin attacks succeed (Combat Style Master lets you throw in a Shaitan Skin attack with a quick stance-switch). Shaitan Skin allows you to stagger targets fairly easily, and both Elemental Fist and Stunning Fist can be used level/day times with Ascetic Form; there's nothing stopping you from crippling an enemy's saves with Enforcer while throwing both Shaitan and Stunning at them to see what sticks. With a level of Monk and solid WIS, saves aren't the usual problem they would be, especially after Armed Bravery. Overall accuracy is quite high, since Power Attack isn't needed. Cashflow is somewhat tight, since you want two effective swords and both +STR and +WIS items, but overall combat effectiveness is high enough that slightly slower item grabbing shouldn't be an issue.
| dark78660 |
One rather unique dual-wield build I've been thinking about trying is an 'Ascetic/Dragon with two swords' thing, where you can apply the Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity bonuses to dual-wielding temple swords or 9-ring broadswords.
You know what, I have made many dual-wield builds using Ascetic/other style, but I always skipped Dragon Style for some explainable reason, the fact that offhands go straight from x0.5->x1.5 without even needing doubleslice is amazing! Unless im mistaken you could out damage a Two-Handed Fighter(or at least more damage reliability).
Four thumbs up for this idea, great advice for a potential TWF build!!!