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I was watching a ghost in the shell episode, and they had a character, a revolutionary leader who kept returning to Japan. Upon investigation, section 9 found out, that this revolutionary leader was in suspended animation while a "ghost dubbing machine" copied the mind/ghost of the revolutionary leader and put it into a duplicate body. The revolutionary leader would return periodically to update the original"s memories and experience.
Would this be possible for a wizard to do? what spells' discoveries would he need?
Thanks
I was watching a ghost in the shell episode, and they had a character, a revolutionary leader who kept returning to Japan. Upon investigation, section 9 found out, that this revolutionary leader was in suspended animation while a "ghost dubbing machine" copied the mind/ghost of the revolutionary leader and put it into a duplicate body. The revolutionary leader would return periodically to update the original"s memories and experience.
Would this be possible for a wizard to do? what spells' discoveries would he need?
Thanks
What you describing is what we in the trade call a story event. One that's usually described as background NPC text, and what's generally done is unique ritual/artifact/blessing/curse is created for the purpose of the story. We don't generally worry about pre-reqs and such as PC's are not expected to be able to duplicate it.
So the real big question is... are you asking this as a player? If so this is in the Aask Your GM area and he'll probably put you on a long quest of discovery and encounter with uncertain levels of success.
Are you asking as GM? If so the answer is just make it happen if that's what you want to do. If it's for an NPC just come up with story, the mechanics don't matter.
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There's a famous wizard in the Forgotten Realms who tried to be immortal by cloning.
The result was the War of the Manshoons.
There was a little-known webcomic called Remember in which the main character ends up using this trick to outlive the vast majority of his enemies.
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
Deux Hero thank you for your question I'll look up that magical item in the
Drahliana Moonrunner now that you bring up Manshoon, I remember Manshoon. I seem to remember a 9th spell he developed called Stasis Clone...which let him go around and update his clones that he kept in suspended animation. I don't remember which product I saw it in.
I guess to answer your question, I am neither the GM nor a Player. I was just wondering if it could be done. As you say as a GM, it just happens. It doesn't need to comply to "the rules". As a Player, the GM can make it "happen" with a quest.
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As 0o0o0 0o0o0 said, Vraxeris (from Rise of the Runelords AP) tried this path. It mostly worked, but at some point, he developed some sort of mind degradation (which got worse with each new body swap). In 3.5 version, it was attributed to negative level from the spell, when he changed bodies. In Pathfinder, it's just a setting restriction (Vraxeris tried to create new, improved Clone spell, but mind degradation caught with him first).
Why bother with Clone when you can easily do it with Reincarnate.
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Why bother with Clone when you can easily do it with Reincarnate.
In the case of Vraxeris, due to circumstances he had no access to Reincarnate (nor Restoration for the dropped levels unfortunately) and he was too vain to have another person's body, it was vital for his self-image that he looked exactly the same, as himself.
For a lot of people, Reincarnate is probably an easier option, especially the expanded list. A Troglodyte might be powerful, but not everyone wants some bruiser with Stench.
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Oh I know about Vraxeris - he also didn't have access to too many druids.
But if you're a wizard thinking of immortality and eyeballing that Clone spell in your spellbook, you can probably find a work around or two for becoming 'Stinky Bob - Troglodyte Wizard'.
Create a timeless Demiplane. (You can do this on the Astral Plane also as it's timeless, but it's far less secure)
Create Clones.
Cast Magic Jar from your demiplane to posses a clone.
Planeshift to Golarian (or wherever).
Refresh Daily.
You now have 1hr/level to do whatever you need to do on Golarian. Double that if you use Extend Metamagic.
A more efficient way would be to make a magic item of at will magic jar, but at minimum you could ride around in a clone for most of the day then sleep and prepare spells in your demiplane.
More efficient still, astral project to Golarian from your demiplane. However, if you really want bodies then Clone/magic jar is the way to go.
Oh I know about Vraxeris - he also didn't have access to too many druids.
But if you're a wizard thinking of immortality and eyeballing that Clone spell in your spellbook, you can probably find a work around or two for becoming 'Stinky Bob - Troglodyte Wizard'.
Or if you're a machinist just keep killing yourself until you get a shape you can live with.
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Or if you're a machinist just keep killing yourself until you get a shape you can live with.Oh I know about Vraxeris - he also didn't have access to too many druids.
But if you're a wizard thinking of immortality and eyeballing that Clone spell in your spellbook, you can probably find a work around or two for becoming 'Stinky Bob - Troglodyte Wizard'.
Pretty sure you meant 'Masochist', and you wouldn't even need to be that.
"Just kill me again and lets give it another go." is a perfectly rational response to becoming a Troglodyte, Bugbear on the other hand is nothing but WIN.
If you're looking a Clone in your book, you may well also have Wish a few pages further.
I thought I remembered a line of text somewhere saying that there were ways to influence the result (but then gave no specifics). Is that random bad data retained from an earlier edition?
Or if you're a machinist just keep killing yourself until you get a shape you can live with.Oh I know about Vraxeris - he also didn't have access to too many druids.
But if you're a wizard thinking of immortality and eyeballing that Clone spell in your spellbook, you can probably find a work around or two for becoming 'Stinky Bob - Troglodyte Wizard'.
Pretty sure you meant 'Masochist', and you wouldn't even need to be that.
"Just kill me again and lets give it another go." is a perfectly rational response to becoming a Troglodyte, Bugbear on the other hand is nothing but WIN.
If you're looking a Clone in your book, you may well also have Wish a few pages further.
I thought I remembered a line of text somewhere saying that there were ways to influence the result (but then gave no specifics). Is that random bad data retained from an earlier edition?
Yes. Auto-correct strikes again.
Technically? Probably not, but you can fake it for a VEEEERRRRY LOOOOOONG time.
The key problem here is that you do slightly advance in time as you go through clones-
1. You make a bunch of clones when you are, lets say, 30.00. For the purposes of this, lets say that you can keep the uninhabited clones in some kind of stasis.
2. After running through most of your supply, you have to make a new batch of clones, based off of your current clone body.
3. I takes a few days to set up things. The clones are of your freshest clone body... but you used that body for a few days. Ergo, the clones are copies of your body at age 30.05.
4. Rinse and repeat, and you run through a couple days every batch of clones.
5. In about 10,000 years, you might actually age a year.
6. You die in about 500,000 years.
I might not be getting all the details right (not going to look too deeply into spells here), but this seems about right when you are working with clones- the quality of your samples eventually degrades with time as you keep on copying them.
There are ways to mitigate this, of course- a timeless plane seems obvious... but if you have access to stuff like that, why go with clones for longevity style immortality? Admittedly, it does provide great longevity, and it is a nice supplement in case other forms have gaps... but honestly, it seems easy for it to have enough problems over the course of 'forever' that I wouldn't main it.
Technically? Probably not, but you can fake it for a VEEEERRRRY LOOOOOONG time.
The key problem here is that you do slightly advance in time as you go through clones-
1. You make a bunch of clones when you are, lets say, 30.00. For the purposes of this, lets say that you can keep the uninhabited clones in some kind of stasis.
2. After running through most of your supply, you have to make a new batch of clones, based off of your current clone body.
3. I takes a few days to set up things. The clones are of your freshest clone body... but you used that body for a few days. Ergo, the clones are copies of your body at age 30.05.
4. Rinse and repeat, and you run through a couple days every batch of clones.
5. In about 10,000 years, you might actually age a year.
6. You die in about 500,000 years.I might not be getting all the details right (not going to look too deeply into spells here), but this seems about right when you are working with clones- the quality of your samples eventually degrades with time as you keep on copying them.
There are ways to mitigate this, of course- a timeless plane seems obvious... but if you have access to stuff like that, why go with clones for longevity style immortality? Admittedly, it does provide great longevity, and it is a nice supplement in case other forms have gaps... but honestly, it seems easy for it to have enough problems over the course of 'forever' that I wouldn't main it.
Couldn't you just keep your original clone and never actually inhabit it? Just re-use it by casting regeneration or what not on it?
Of course you'd have to keep the original preserved, but unsuitable for some reason. Cut in Half or something.
While I might ahve exaggerated the continual use risks... even with the originals kept on ice, I think it is not sufficient for eternal longevity since it has to face up with the infinite growth of chance when you smack your head against 'forever'.
I do not doubt that a high level wizard could generally keep themselves safe, particularly when they have clones as insurance policies against getting killed...
...but your clones will naturally be more vulnerable than you are. Just the nature of being objects- it is basically a phylactery. When you are dealing with 'forever', particularly when you are powerful enough to get on the stage where gods notice you, then something will eventually try to take the clones out. Sure, you can spread things around... but I am sure that SOMETHING will eventually try to see what it can get away with, and again.... 'forever'- plenty of time for them to try and eventually get lucky.
You won't die just from that alone, of course... but you might experience a catastrophic loss of time- if you go a few years between switching clones... then that is time right off your life, since you will be forced to copy your now older body as the new base.
Sure there are ways to prevent or combat that time loss- timeless planes and age regressing items... but again- why not use those as your primary longevity means if you eventually have to resort to them anyway. Better to use them regularly and insure they are always on hand in case of clone failure. You would also want to double up with clones anyway since they are the 'not getting killed' immortality.
Or better yet- follow aroden and just use the long life to become a god. And then don't follow aroden in the 'secretly murdered' department.
Or better yet- follow aroden and just use the long life to become a god. And then don't follow aroden in the 'secretly murdered' department.
I take great offence to the idea that the miracles exhibited by our great lord Aroden could be so easily replicated by any wizard with enough money and paranoia. The Immortal Azlanti, and truly immortal he was, never needed clones. It was what he started with, and it was all The Last of the First needed to preserve the great bloodline of humanity's progenitors.
If we truly wish to seek an example of Aroden's opinions on the matter, then we must look at his great accomplishment of defeating in single combat the horrifying lichking Tar-Baphon! Great Aroden clearly shows his disfavour to those who wish to unnaturally extend their lives and sully the mind and soul with these constant switching of form. You were all born with a single body. You are expected to die in it. OR rise to god-hood, as the Living God (and he still lives yet. In our hearts) showed by dragging the Star Stone up fro the depths of the sea. Three have taken the Last Azlanti's advice, and have achieved great success since. I would therefore recommend seeking the Test of the Starstone, should you wish to prolong your lives.
It is up to us, as humans, and not slaves to magical power, to achieve our lofty goals of ascending to the greatness that was Aroden. Do not think to waste your time and efforts on such barbaric methods of immortality!
Or better yet- follow aroden and just use the long life to become a god. And then don't follow aroden in the 'secretly murdered' department.I take great offence to the idea that the miracles exhibited by our great lord Aroden could be so easily replicated by any wizard with enough money and paranoia. The Immortal Azlanti, and truly immortal he was, never needed clones. It was what he started with, and it was all The Last of the First needed to preserve the great bloodline of humanity's progenitors.
If we truly wish to seek an example of Aroden's opinions on the matter, then we must look at his great accomplishment of defeating in single combat the horrifying lichking Tar-Baphon! Great Aroden clearly shows his disfavour to those who wish to unnaturally extend their lives and sully the mind and soul with these constant switching of form. You were all born with a single body. You are expected to die in it. OR rise to god-hood, as the Living God (and he still lives yet. In our hearts) showed by dragging the Star Stone up fro the depths of the sea. Three have taken the Last Azlanti's advice, and have achieved great success since. I would therefore recommend seeking the Test of the Starstone, should you wish to prolong your lives.
It is up to us, as humans, and not slaves to magical power, to achieve our lofty goals of ascending to the greatness that was Aroden. Do not think to waste your time and efforts on such barbaric methods of immortality!
Well yes, that is the gist- even Aroden needed a few thousand years before he had the time to go look for the starstone (bah apocalypses are just such a distraction). He had to settle for more traditional arcane methods until then.
All I am saying here is this- you get the 8th level spells needed for cloning at around level 15. And the less risky methods of longevity come online towards 20 (or at least 9th level spells). So getting to level 15 lets you draw things out until you feel confident using the star stone test.
Generally, for wizards, time is a direct correlation to power. To buying more time allows you to gain better methods at getting even more time. You are trying to build up here. Cloning seems like it is just the lowest method to getting more time (that doesn't involve the low hanging, rotten fruit of lichdom).
Yes, cloning is one of several ways for a wizard to achieve near-immortality.
Astral Projection places the caster's body in temporal statis and had no duration.
The best bet for near-immortality would be using Astral Projection in a pocket dimension, with clones stored in several other pocket dimensions. You can be active on any plane of existence, except for the one housing your real body. You never age. If you 'die', you simply wake up in your real body. If something takes out your real body, you wake up in a clone.
This use of clone goes all the way back to Gygax & co. playing what would eventually become OD&D. IIRC, you made a bunch of clones and kept them in temporal stasis. If you got killed, one of the clones would wake up -- this seems to be ripped off whole cloth from Jack Vance's Clarges (aka "To Live Forever"), by the way.
If you wanted to kill a wizard, you simultaneously had your army sack his fortress and kill all his clones -- I think Robilar did this once or twice.
This use of clone goes all the way back to Gygax & co. playing what would eventually become OD&D. IIRC, you made a bunch of clones and kept them in temporal stasis. If you got killed, one of the clones would wake up -- this seems to be ripped off whole cloth from Jack Vance's Clarges (aka "To Live Forever"), by the way.
If you wanted to kill a wizard, you simultaneously had your army sack his fortress and kill all his clones -- I think Robilar did this once or twice.
Didn't that happen to Tenser and Otiluke?
This use of clone goes all the way back to Gygax & co. playing what would eventually become OD&D. IIRC, you made a bunch of clones and kept them in temporal stasis. If you got killed, one of the clones would wake up -- this seems to be ripped off whole cloth from Jack Vance's Clarges (aka "To Live Forever"), by the way.
If you wanted to kill a wizard, you simultaneously had your army sack his fortress and kill all his clones -- I think Robilar did this once or twice.
He put two of the Circle of Eight out of permanent commission when he assisted Rary The Traitor in his coup bid.
This use of clone goes all the way back to Gygax & co. playing what would eventually become OD&D. IIRC, you made a bunch of clones and kept them in temporal stasis. If you got killed, one of the clones would wake up -- this seems to be ripped off whole cloth from Jack Vance's Clarges (aka "To Live Forever"), by the way.
If you wanted to kill a wizard, you simultaneously had your army sack his fortress and kill all his clones -- I think Robilar did this once or twice.
Back in the day, a clone was a copy of you, not a place for your spirit to go back to. That's why all of Manshoon's clones activated all at once and declared war on each other. A couple were still around after the dust settled, one of them got turned into a vampire.
Or better yet- follow aroden and just use the long life to become a god. And then don't follow aroden in the 'secretly murdered' department.I take great offence to the idea that the miracles exhibited by our great lord Aroden could be so easily replicated by any wizard with enough money and paranoia. The Immortal Azlanti, and truly immortal he was, never needed clones. It was what he started with, and it was all The Last of the First needed to preserve the great bloodline of humanity's progenitors.
If we truly wish to seek an example of Aroden's opinions on the matter, then we must look at his great accomplishment of defeating in single combat the horrifying lichking Tar-Baphon! Great Aroden clearly shows his disfavour to those who wish to unnaturally extend their lives and sully the mind and soul with these constant switching of form. You were all born with a single body. You are expected to die in it. OR rise to god-hood, as the Living God (and he still lives yet. In our hearts) showed by dragging the Star Stone up fro the depths of the sea. Three have taken the Last Azlanti's advice, and have achieved great success since. I would therefore recommend seeking the Test of the Starstone, should you wish to prolong your lives.
It is up to us, as humans, and not slaves to magical power, to achieve our lofty goals of ascending to the greatness that was Aroden. Do not think to waste your time and efforts on such barbaric methods of immortality!
Well yes, that is the gist- even Aroden needed a few thousand years before he had the time to go look for the starstone (bah apocalypses are just such a distraction). He had to settle for more traditional arcane methods until then.
All I am saying here is this- you get the 8th level spells needed for cloning at around level 15. And the less risky methods of longevity come online towards 20 (or at least 9th level spells). So getting to level 15 lets you draw things out until you feel...
If I recall correctly, none of those who took the Test of the Starstone... AND survived, were spellcasters. they were a fighter, assasin, and a paladin
Back in the day, a clone was a copy of you, not a place for your spirit to go back to. That's why all of Manshoon's clones activated all at once and declared war on each other. A couple were still around after the dust settled, one of them got turned into a vampire.
Bah. 2e Forgotten Realms is newfangled. Get off my lawn!