Since I couldn't find any faq about it, and the other threads were quite confusing, I'm going to be the 34153879th to ask.
Looking at this picture, who is creature #1 flanking with? Surely with #4, who is diametrally opposite, but does #1 flank with anyone else?
#2 and #5 should not flank with #1, since the lines between them don't cross opposite borders.
But what about #3? Does #1 flank with #3?
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
And what does "including corners of those borders" mean?
Does it mean that the line *must* pass through the corner at an end of the opposite border (thus, #1 and #3 wouldn't flank), or that it *may* but is not needed, as long as the line crosses opposite borders (thus, #1 and #3 would actually flank)?The wording could be interpreted both ways, but if it has to be taken literally, it seems that the corners *have* to be included, unless the flanked creature is medium size (aka by definition it can be flanked only by enemies on opposite sides).
Also, I tried an experiment here.
I did nothing more than rotate the grid. The creatures are in the exact same location, but now, if you tilt your head a little, you can see that #1 and #3 are no way on opposite borders of the bear, while #1 and #4 still are (yes, the grid is a little off, but you can see for yourself).
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To flank, one of two possible positions must be met:
1. A line passes through 2 opposite boarders of the creature. In your example, this is shown by number 1 and number 3, also number 1 and 4.
2. A line passes through 2 opposite corners. This is not shown in your example picture. However if number 1 moved 5 feet toward the top of the map, that would put him on the opposite corner of number5, and therefor flanking.
To flank, one of two possible positions must be met:
1. A line passes through 2 opposite boarders of the creature. In your example, this is shown by number 1 and number 3, also number 1 and 4.
2. A line passes through 2 opposite corners. This is not shown in your example picture. However if number 1 moved 5 feet toward the top of the map, that would put him on the opposite corner of number5, and therefor flanking.
I believe if #5 took a 5 foot step forward it would also flank - and then provide a flank to #2 if #2 took a 5 foot step also.
I believe if #5 took a 5 foot step forward it would also flank - and then provide a flank to #2 if #2 took a 5 foot step also.To flank, one of two possible positions must be met:
1. A line passes through 2 opposite boarders of the creature. In your example, this is shown by number 1 and number 3, also number 1 and 4.
2. A line passes through 2 opposite corners. This is not shown in your example picture. However if number 1 moved 5 feet toward the top of the map, that would put him on the opposite corner of number5, and therefor flanking.
No. The line must be drawn from the center of one allies space to the center of the other allies space. No where number 5 cold move with a 5 foot step will result in flanking, unless number 2 also take a 5 foot step toward the left side of the picture. Or if number 5 had a reach weapon, he could step behind number 4 and still flank with number 1.
This line must pass through opposite borders or opposite corners of the creatures entire space, not just one of the squares that makes up the creatures space. If number 5 took a 5' step anywhere, he still wouldn't be flanking with anyone. Left and right are opposites, as are top and bottom. Right border and bottom border are not opposites. A creature only has 4 corners - on where the top and right borders meet, one where the top and left borders meet, and the same on the bottom.
I believe if #5 took a 5 foot step forward it would also flank - and then provide a flank to #2 if #2 took a 5 foot step also.To flank, one of two possible positions must be met:
1. A line passes through 2 opposite boarders of the creature. In your example, this is shown by number 1 and number 3, also number 1 and 4.
2. A line passes through 2 opposite corners. This is not shown in your example picture. However if number 1 moved 5 feet toward the top of the map, that would put him on the opposite corner of number5, and therefor flanking.
No. The line must be drawn from the center of one allies space to the center of the other allies space. No where number 5 cold move with a 5 foot step will result in flanking, unless number 2 also take a 5 foot step toward the left side of the picture.
This line must pass through opposite borders or opposite corners. If number 5 took a 5' step anywhere, he still wouldn't be flanking with anyone. Left and right are opposites, as are top and bottom. Right border and bottom border are not opposites. A creature only has 4 corners - on where the top and right borders meet, one where the top and left borders meet, and the same on the bottom.
If #5 was five feet forward wouldn't that pass the 'opposite sides including corners' rule?
See attached - black line is the line from corner to corner - blue circles are the opposite sides - and the corners of those sides would should indicate a flank no?
If #5 was five feet forward wouldn't that pass the 'opposite sides including corners' rule?See attached - black line is the line from corner to corner - blue circles are the opposite sides - and the corners of those sides would should indicate a flank no?
No, because that isn't an opposite corner of the creature's space. A creatures space is all of the squares it makes up as a whole.
You don't look at individual squares - you have to look at the creatures space as a whole. A creatures borders are the outer edges of its whole space. A creatures corners only exist where those borders meet. A creature only ever has 4 corners (well, 8 if we go 3 dimensional) regardless of its size.
If #5 was five feet forward wouldn't that pass the 'opposite sides including corners' rule?See attached - black line is the line from corner to corner - blue circles are the opposite sides - and the corners of those sides would should indicate a flank no?
No, because that isn't an opposite corner of the creature's space. A creatures space is all of the squares it makes up as a whole.
You don't look at individual squares - you have to look at the creatures space as a whole. A creatures borders are the outer edges of its whole space. A creatures corners only exist where those borders meet. A creature only ever has 4 corners (well, 8 if we go 3 dimensional) regardless of its size.
Ok that actually helps a bunch thank you.
yup, corners is exactly through corners, not shown.
1 is flanking with 3 and 4 like mentioned above
But as I said above, if you just rotate the grid while keeping the positions (here; or you could reposition the creatures, I just rotated the grid for a more immediate graphic feedback), #3 is clearly nowhere on an opposite side. How do you reconcile with that?
If you adjust the positions, #3 is even less on an opposite side, and #4 is exactly as it was previously.
yeah, the grid rules how flanking works. New picture has only 4 flanking. 5 would be flanking if he had reach.
But as I said above, if you just rotate the grid while keeping the positions (here; or you could reposition the creatures, I just rotated the grid for a more immediate graphic feedback), #3 is clearly nowhere on an opposite side. How do you reconcile with that?
Those creatures aren't in the same positions. Keep them in the squares they are in, and realign the grid. Those creatures occupy different points on both maps.
Square grids mess up a whole lot of things.
Not to mention that the position in the rotated grid picture isn't possible - numbers 2 and 5 aren't in a square at all. No matter where you put them, their position changes. Either they become too far away to attack, or their straight line formation becomes a curve around the creature.
Wherever you want to put #2 is irrelevant, since it won't flank anyway.
If you want to consider that #5's proper square should be the one to the south-west of #4's, you'd have #5 in the same unclear situation as #3, where by rotating the grid again #5 would clearly not be on the opposite side, so it would still not flank, as it didn't in the starting picture.