So while I was working on a card caster magus build, I began wondering exactly how far I could possibly throw my javelin before incurring penalties to my attack rolls. However I'm not entirely sure what of these effects stack:
Range Modifiers
- Javelin base range: 30 ft.
- Strong Arm, Supple Wrist trait: While it doesn't buff my range on a full-attack, I don't need it to since card casters won't be able to make as much use out of spell combat (though I could feasibly use a javelin as a melee weapon with a nonproficiency penalty). Since I'm intending to be able to move anyway, I'm going to count this as +10 ft. range.
- Longshot spell: For 1 minute per magus level, I'll have another +10 ft. range on any ranged weapon.
- Distance weapon quality: Doubles my javelin's range. What's better still is I can just pop this onto any javelin at 5th.
- Spear-thrower: Doubles my javelin's range increment. It means I'll need to take Rapid Reload if I'm to utilize it in combat simultaneously to the SASW trait, though. Fun fact: since Deadly Dealer lets you treat cards as darts, this means you can load cards into a spear-thrower too (which could be useful for full-attacks).
Assuming these all stack, this should give my javelin an effective range increment of 200 feet ((30+10+10)*2*2) or 140 feet (30*2*2+10+10) depending on the order these effects are applied. Now as for how far I can actually throw it:
Attack penalty mitigation
- Wasteland Hunter trait: -2 to the penalty I suffer from throwing beyond my range increment. This effectively doubles how far I can throw my javelin before I incur penalties. If I can find any race that provides some benefit to javelins' range I'd take this via Adopted, but human is an appealing enough race anyway due to the bonus feat so there's that.
- Distance Thrower: Same as above, but it applies to all thrown weapons.
- Far Shot: Halves my range increment penalty, thus making the above penalty reductions twice as effective.
This should mean my penalties are reduced by 4 total, and because the penalty is -1 per increment, that gives me a total of five increments I can throw before taking penalties, assuming Wasteland Hunter and Distance Thrower stack, so that's a full range of either 1000 feet or 700 feet, depending upon how the range increment is calculated. And I can go twice this far for a penalty of no more than -5.
Does all this check out? Or are there any stacking issues that'll reduce this? I also have a couple of miscellaneous questions to add to this:
- If I have multiple javelins and cast returning weapon, I could only affect a single javelin with the spell per casting, correct?
- Would I be able to treat a javelin as my chosen weapon for the purpose of the kensai archetype? Or does this specifically refer to the martial/exotic weapon I choose to be proficient with as a kensai (of which javelins aren't an option, since they are simple weapons)?
- If I chose to go card caster/myrmidarch instead, could I select advanced weapon training options for them at 12th and 18th levels, or would this be limited to the Advanced Weapon Training feat?
- A card caster wouldn't qualify for Extra Arcana until 6th level (since that's when they first are able to select a magus arcana), correct? Or 9th for a card caster/myrmidarch?
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Add 1 lvl warpriest with air blessing to take no range penalty at all.
Add 1 lvl warpriest with air blessing to take no range penalty at all.
Ooh, and it keeps me from provoking with it as well. Nice find there, that potentially saves me two feats and a trait right there. A bit of a shame there's no warpriest archetypes that'll do anything significant on a 1-level dip but I can deal with that.
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MUltipliers don't work that way in Pathfinder.
Multiplying: When you are asked to apply more than one multiplier to a roll, the multipliers are not multiplied by one another. Instead, you combine them into a single multiplier, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. For example, if you are asked to apply a ×2 multiplier twice, the result would be ×3, not ×4.
While that rule speak of "multiplier to a roll", it is applied to all multipliers so two x2 multipliers to range become a x3 multiplier, not a x4 multiplier.
I suppose that with "spear-thrower" you mean an Atlatl, as, AFAIK, there is no spear thrower in Pathfinder.
Atlatl: An atlatl is a thin piece of wood or antler used as a lever to hurl a specially fitted dart. An atlatl gives much greater range to a dart, but must be loaded like a projectile weapon. Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use an atlatl, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire—but not load—an atlatl with one hand. Loading an atlatl is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. The Rapid Reload feat can be taken for atlatls, allowing you to load a dart as a free action. Atlatl darts are the size of javelins but have fletching, and can be used as javelins without an atlatl.
It fire Atlatl darts, not javelins, spears or cards that work like darts. Unless the card caster ability say that your cards work like Atlatl darts (it don't) you can't fire them with an atlatl. It is like trying to fire bolts with a bow.
So, 100' yards with a trait and a spell plus 1 arcane point for each javelin you throw, unless you give them the returning ability (javelins and darts aren't ammunition, so you enchant only one, your deck of cards is a special exemption to that rule).
Costly.
Aight, the multiplier rule makes sense. So instead it would be a range of 110 or 150, depending on how the +10s are added on. I'm still fine with that.
The spear-thrower is from the Adventurer's Armory:
Source Adventurer's Armory pg. 19
Price 1 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Category Adventuring Gear
Description
This is little more than a handle with a cup, loop, or spur to hold the butt of a dart, javelin, or shortspear. Using a spear-thrower to throw such a weapon doubles the projectile’s range increment. Setting a weapon into a spear-thrower is a move action; by taking the Rapid Reload (spear-thrower) feat, you reduce this to a free action.
Yes, if I don't have the option of getting my javelin back, it'd be pretty expensive overall. Magi do have the spell returning weapon though, as well as the card caster's arcane pool, so I'd be taking the fullest advantage of that possible. Another idea I had was using a sharding javelin, but the mechanics there are fuzzy (and something I already brought up in another thread).
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Add 1 lvl warpriest with air blessing to take no range penalty at all.Ooh, and it keeps me from provoking with it as well. Nice find there, that potentially saves me two feats and a trait right there. A bit of a shame there's no warpriest archetypes that'll do anything significant on a 1-level dip but I can deal with that.
It won't and you probably won't have very good Wis, but it also gets rid of any need for UMD. You can use items on the Magus and Cleric list which is as good as anything. You can take Broad Study to Spell Combat with a Warpriest spell too if you want, which is a hoot. Weapon Focus too. Try to take the Unchained staggered progression for BAB, that drop is annoying.
The flavour of this is pretty good. Zeus used javelins of lightning so your Magus using Shocking Grasp infused javelins has solid mythical provenance.
We don't have Zeus in PF, sadly. We also don't have a deity with both Air domain and javelin favoured weapon which is a shame but not vital - Kurgess likes javelins and has a nice Greek heroic style. Gozreh, Pulura and Shelyn are pretty sensible air granters.
Far Strike Monk will net you ranged flurry and +20 extra range increment for a ki point, but it takes 4 levels to get there. Divine Tracker Ranger gets Warpriest blessings, but it takes 4 levels instead of 1.
If you crack open the Mythic can of worms, you can get infinite distance with no range penalty.
I was looking at divine tracker, as well as a few other archetypes, but ultimately, for this build at least, I think a 4 level dip is too much unless I'm taking it late-game. It also suffers this build's same shortcomings (can't actually full-attack without basically tossing 1 gold at the enemy per attack). I was hoping to get this off the ground rather early on, relying on magus spells to provide the returning property until either 9th (when I can use the magus pool to apply both returning and distance) or I happen to get a returning and/or distance javelin. I almost wanted to take eldritch archer for this, honestly, so I could have a javelin as a bonded weapon, but I'm not too keen on having to wait until 9th to allow me to ranged spellstrike with touch-ranged spells (I know I could just use snowball if it was about damage, but I like the idea of tossing out debuffs, or casting chill touch to allow a full-attack with javelins the next turn that'll benefit).
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is 10 range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.
Max # of range increments is based on weapon type.
/cevah