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I have a nitpicky rule deciphering issue.
Hold Person says you're "frozen in place" and that you're "paralyzed". Does this mean the person is like in a rigid upright position almost like petrified - in exactly the same position they were before the effect?
IF so, does this mean that all conditions of "Paralysis" leaves a victim in this fashion?
OR
Is paralysis more like the medical definition of "paralysis" that we consider in the real world such as paraplegic who has no feeling below the neck. If so, such a person would flop to the floor immediately, unable to move, stand, or even hold onto an item (such as their weapon).
The wording for the conditions seems to imply that it is the former, as is the fact that moving through a paralyzed person's square is effectively difficult terrain - while a dead/unconscious laying on ground person does not constitute difficult terrain (but an argument can be made that it could be - especially large bodies).
Robert
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Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
I have always understood it as the first, as nothing calls out the paralyzed creature gaining the prone condition or dropping items.
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I think it's written inconsistently. It seems like sometimes the book assumes you're frozen in place and sometimes you simply lose the ability to control your body.
I agree with this assessment - but I find more hints at the former as these other contributers have stated; especially as it relates to Hold Person.
However "paralyzed" is not a good descriptor IMO; but petrified has a different meaning all together. To me paralyzed is like getting nerve-block; you're awake but can't move. Which we all know makes one incapable of standing.
For me I'll contribute to adjudicate it the way I had been consistent with the consensus; but I would like there to be a difference between "Hold Person" rigid in place, and physical paralysis that say a neuro-toxin poison could do to cause you the medical equivalence of paralysis.
The reason this came up was a game I was running in which a poison that I implemented was meant to cause just such a condition but when I suggested he was "paralyzed" and falls to the ground (from the neuro-toxin) I was given the rule-lawyer debate that "paralyzed" as a condition says nothing about crumpling to the ground. But there wasn't a condition to describe my narrative.
I suppose you could just say the poison knocks your Dex to Zero and thus you can't stand, but paralyzed condition does the same thing (Dex to zero) and it seems you don't fall down.
Don't overthink such things. Don't explain too much to the players either, just describe what happens to them (and let them interpret it any way they wish), you will avoid a lot of discussions ;)
The problem with arbitrating paralysis as "becoming a statue" is all the follow on arbitrations that must follow:
1) Does the creature resist attempts by a third party to change it's postion?
1a) if so, what is the STR check DC to manipulate the creature?
1b) how much if any damage and of what type does the creature take if the STR check is successful?
1c) does the creature resist attempts to change the position of a limb that has already been moved by a successful STR check?
2) Can we use the paralyzed creature to brace things the creature lacks the STR score to brace, like a descending ceiling?
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Don't overthink such things. Don't explain too much to the players either, just describe what happens to them (and let them interpret it any way they wish), you will avoid a lot of discussions ;)
While this seems like a simple solution for some, it's not a solution for all.
The "conditions" in the game exist for a reason - they present a game mechanic with statistical modifications that are to be applied, and a means to overcome/remove it.
Narrating is still important and good, but without a game mechanic to quantify things, it is hard to make game decisions based on the stimulus and effects.
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The problem with arbitrating paralysis as "becoming a statue" is all the follow on arbitrations that must follow:
1) Does the creature resist attempts by a third party to change it's postion?
1a) if so, what is the STR check DC to manipulate the creature?
1b) how much if any damage and of what type does the creature take if the STR check is successful?
1c) does the creature resist attempts to change the position of a limb that has already been moved by a successful STR check?
2) Can we use the paralyzed creature to brace things the creature lacks the STR score to brace, like a descending ceiling?
Core Rules description of Paralysis (pg 564), states: "He is frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs." So that answers Q: #1.
I think TriOmegaZero has a good thought of how to adjudicate these questions.
If you want to do the cow tipping thing on a Held Person, there is nothing stopping you. They however, can't fall on their own.
IF so, does this mean that all conditions of "Paralysis" leaves a victim in this fashion?
OR
Is paralysis more like the medical definition of "paralysis" that we consider in the real world such as paraplegic who has no feeling below the neck.
The former. In Pathfinder, the paralyzed condition does not mean medical paralysis. From Core [emphasis mine]:
Paralysis
Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. Paralysis from poison is discussed in the Afflictions section.
That means paralysis from monsters and from spells like Hold Person is a magical and not mundane effect. They cause a rigid paralysis that freezes you where you are, not a medical paralysis where you collapse to the ground and are unable to move your muscles (or feel anything in the affected area).
Unfortunately, paralysis from poisons isn't discussed in the "Afflictions" section of Core as promised, so the rules there are a little ambiguous. Most poisons, though, cause ability damage, and when any of your ability scores drop to 0 you are unconscious (unless it's Con, in which case you are dead).
There really isn't a condition in Pathfinder that corresponds to a medical paralysis.
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IF so, does this mean that all conditions of "Paralysis" leaves a victim in this fashion?
OR
Is paralysis more like the medical definition of "paralysis" that we consider in the real world such as paraplegic who has no feeling below the neck.
The former. In Pathfinder, the paralyzed condition does not mean medical paralysis. From Core [emphasis mine]:
Paralysis
Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. Paralysis from poison is discussed in the Afflictions section.
That means paralysis from monsters and from spells like Hold Person is a magical and not mundane effect. They cause a rigid paralysis that freezes you where you are, not a medical paralysis where you collapse to the ground and are unable to move your muscles (or feel anything in the affected area).
Unfortunately, paralysis from poisons isn't discussed in the "Afflictions" section of Core as promised, so the rules there are a little ambiguous. Most poisons, though, cause ability damage, and when any of your ability scores drop to 0 you are unconscious (unless it's Con, in which case you are dead).
There really isn't a condition in Pathfinder that corresponds to a medical paralysis.
Thank you - your answer is one of the most articulated response. I too found no evidence of the paralysis from poison in the affliction - part of my confusion over it all.
One follow-up question - when you're paralyzed, isn't your Dex (and Strength for that matter) effectively Zero ? So how is that any different from poison damaging your Dex to zero. I Didn't realize you "fall unconscious" if your Dex is damaged to Zero.
One follow-up question - when you're paralyzed, isn't your Dex (and Strength for that matter) effectively Zero ? So how is that any different from poison damaging your Dex to zero. I Didn't realize you "fall unconscious" if your Dex is damaged to Zero.
Being effectively Zero is not the same as actually BEING Zero due to ability damage and/or drain.
Either way, you're completely helpless, so I don't see the reason for getting overworked about a difference that is no difference.
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Paralyzed as written seems to indicate your body cannot be moved "even by your friends" (though I believe that doesn't extend to being unmovable from the spot you're in). This would seem to indicate that you remain upright, gripping whatever you were gripping etc. So it wouldn't be easy for someone to come by and just pick up your sword you were wielding.
The difference as I see it is - if you crumple to the ground in paralysis as you would from a neuro-toxin or paraplegia, even say a temporary "stinger" like football players get - they are left prone, and drop their item(s) carried; which would make it easy for someone to remove their weapon/item that they were carrying (assuming that was a goal).
The former of course means that once the paralyzed condition is removed, they are immediately ready to rock and roll. The latter means they are still prone and still have to retrieve their item(s).
That is in a nutshell the main difference as I see it, and I want that distinction.
"Rock and roll" is the answer. Compare/contrast other conditions like Stuned that specifically state you drop all held items for example.
Conditions (and other effects) do no more and no less than what they say they do. Dropping held items and falling prone is not specified, therefore you don't.
Look to the Paralyze spells from the Elder Scrolls games for your reference. You hit someone with it, and they immediately stiffen up (granted due to engine limitations they often fall down and slide across the ground like ice if they're on even a slight incline, but you can see the intent in their initial blow).
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"Rock and roll" is the answer. Compare/contrast other conditions like Stuned that specifically state you drop all held items for example.
Conditions (and other effects) do no more and no less than what they say they do. Dropping held items and falling prone is not specified, therefore you don't.
Look to the Paralyze spells from the Elder Scrolls games for your reference. You hit someone with it, and they immediately stiffen up (granted due to engine limitations they often fall down and slide across the ground like ice if they're on even a slight incline, but you can see the intent in their initial blow).
That one f*$*ing cave in Solstheim...
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Compare/contrast other conditions like Stuned that specifically state you drop all held items for example.
Conditions (and other effects) do no more and no less than what they say they do. Dropping held items and falling prone is not specified, therefore you don't.
I know this. I have not claimed it works otherwise. This thread was looking for validation that it did work as you describe - which was confirmed, and to opine that i ALSO want a mechanic that provides a "paralysis" that isn't frozen in place; like that a clinical paralysis in our world - or like one that is brought on from something like a neuro-toxin.
When it was asked why I need a distinction, my response was that in one case you remain upright, rigid, and clinging to items, and the other you literally fall like a limp noodle dropping items and dropping prone.
In both instances, mental actions would be permissable. I know that this is not in the game as written; but I was merely musing for what could exist. I work in the medical field, so it has always been hard for me to hear "paralyzed" in the game and think of it as it is meant to for game mechanics, as I know that's not really 'paralyzed' as I know it to be.
Thanks.
You're best off with massive amounts of temporary Strength damage in that case. You could pretty easily write a very virulent (and expensive) poison that saps the victim's strength score, but unlike most poisons does damage that wears off after a certain period instead of requiring the "1 point per day" rest time. Or a high level spell that does similar, like a better version of Ray of Enfeeblement.
Wasn't there a semi-recent FAQ or dev commentary suggesting that even magical flight required physical actions, so being paralyzed would still drop you?