I've been mulling over a concept. I'm currently playing an Arcanist with the School Savant archetype. He's specialized in the Teleportation sub-school of Conjuration. I'm not worried about optimizing my character, as far as caster level vs character level is concerned, and my group has yet to hit level 20 in the 20+ years we've been playing D&D-based games, so I'm not worried about capstone abilities.
Has anyone here played an Arcanist build with a 1 level dip in Sorcerer AND a 1 level dip in Wizard, taking the Bloodline Development and School Understanding exploits? If so, how did this pan out?
Huh. I did not notice a 1-level dip would progress each feature as if you possessed it. That certainly raises some questions about balance. I suppose the loss of a caster level is almost balancing, but then again...
I know you said you aren't worried about the loss of caster levels, but it still bears mentioning that it's a pretty huge loss for spell progression. Magical Knack fixes the CL loss but pushing all spells a full level back on an Arcanist hurts.
That being said, I could see certain builds working despite the slower spell progression, such as an Enchanter with the Potent Magic exploit, Enchantment school, and Fey / Infernal / Serpentine bloodline or a Crossblooded Orc/Dragon with Evocation (Admixture) for high-damage blasting that bypasses resistances and immunities. What do you plan on doing?
A 1-level dip is already painful for a primary spellcaster, but a 2-level dip us far worse. To make matters worse, the Arcanist is already a level behind the Wizard. As mentioned Magical Knack cleans up some of the problems, but it still leaves you with very delayed spellcasting.
For example, imagine you've got a 9th level party and you're an Arcanist 7/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1. This gives you access to 3rd levels. If the party also has a Cleric, he has access to 5th level spells, along with all the extra spell slots that entails.
Overall, I don't see this as worthwhile.
If Arcane Casters are so freaking OP as many say so, there's nothing wrong in losing CL.
If you go damage only you're getting +2 to damage for each dice, can raise the DC by 2 like 7 times a day, can switch the damage type of elemental spells.
I'm not sure about Conjuration though, the only good thing is that summons last longer, maybe there's a bloodline arcana that will give them more power that stacks with Augment Summoning.
Yes, spell wise you'd be really behind, but around level 4 spells things start to get broken.
I say go for it. Reminds me of that one prestige class from 3.5 that was basically a mystic theurge but for sorcerer/wizard instead of divine/arcane.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what some good combos would be. I feel like cross blooded Arcane and Draconic with the Admixture school would make a very powerful blaster with lots of versatility albeit behind a bit on the spell progression? Any thoughts
Does anyone have any suggestions on what some good combos would be. I feel like cross blooded Arcane and Draconic with the Admixture school would make a very powerful blaster with lots of versatility albeit behind a bit on the spell progression? Any thoughts
Typically it's Draconic and Orc that are combined with the Admixture Evoker. It's a great way to get a lot of damage on your blasts.
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Does anyone have any suggestions on what some good combos would be. I feel like cross blooded Arcane and Draconic with the Admixture school would make a very powerful blaster with lots of versatility albeit behind a bit on the spell progression? Any thoughts
Enchantment
As I mentioned before, one could make a powerful Enchanter by taking the Enchantment School and one of the many bloodlines with Enchantment-specific arcana. Fey and Infernal grant a +2 DC bonus on Compulsions and Charms respectively. Impossible/Pestilence/Serpentine/Undead allow you to affect constructs/vermin/animals and magical beasts/ previously human undead with various types of spells, typically some types of Enchantments.Evocation
The Evocation: Admixture subschool would go along well with a number of bloodlines - Orc and Draconic give more damage, though Orc applies to all damaging spells while Draconic applies to spells with a specific energy descriptor. Boreal and Stormborn increase the DC of specific energy types while Arcane and Div give more broad DC boosts for metamagic and area blasting respectively. Some allow you to change the damage type and spell type of your blasts (Djinni, Efreeti, Marid, Shaitan, and Elemental) - note that these could cause spells to benefit from Draconic, Boreal, or Stormborn as they change the spell's type rather than just the damage type. I've listed some examples below the spoiler:
Assume the Evocation: Admixture subschool for all of the following:
Crossblooded - Arcane/Div. Has a focus on high Spell DCs and area control through metamagics such as Rime Spell, Lingering Spell, or even Dazing Spell . These are both strong, general buffs for a blaster and don't require any particular element.
Crossblooded - Dragon/Orc. Focuses on putting out #tonsofdamage with a single element. At Level 3 you can cast Snowball and deal 5d6+11 damage (Magical Knack and Spell Specialization gets you the CL 5, Orc and Draconic (White or Silver) gets you +2 damage per dice rolled, and Admixture adds +1. Make sure to pick up Extra Arcanist Exploit if you want to start stacking levels in both classes before Level 5 though.
If your DM decides that Crossblooded is perhaps going a bridge too far I would say Arcane, Div, Elemental, and Orc are the best for blasting. Arcane is the best as a dedicated blaster for getting better spell DCs and abusing metamagic, Div can boost all spell DCs by starting with a single multi-damage spell and has more longevity as they aren't required to use metamagic for the boost (Spell Perfection: Scorching Ray would be great for this purpose, spending a Level 2 slot for decent damage and a DC boost). Elemental is the most versatile of the element-changing bloodlines as far as theme is concerned, and Orc is great for high-damage builds and helps offset the lack of darkvision that some races normally have to deal with.
Divination
Divination: Foresight subschool and the Destined bloodline combine to give your character some powerful stat boosts, starting with Initiative bonuses, a limited "Roll twice" ability, and a source of Insight and Luck bonuses to a variety of stats and ending with the ability to Take 20 on Initiative checks, virtual immunity to critical hits, auto-confirmed critical threats, and even denying death outright. This combination is all about manipulating probability in your favor.
Transmutation
Transmutation: Enhancement subschool fits well with a polymorph wizard, although your BAB will suffer tremendously from 2 dips into 1/2 BAB classes (Fractional BAB fixes this, ask your GM). Play this with a Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist for maximum effect. On the Bloodlines side there's a few standouts. Aberrant and Nanite increase your durations - Aberrant works on only Polymorph spells while Nanite works on all Transmutations but is limited to Personal spells only. Both have nice powers too - Aberrant gives long reach and higher fortification while Nanite gives a slightly-modified Moment of Prescience, reactive buffs and healing, and a limited-use poison which can decrease an enemy's damage and maximum HP. Verdant can boost Natural Armor and saves vs poison and sleep, which is nice. Finally, the Orc and Abyssal bloodlines both grant bonuses to Strength - Orc focuses on increasing AC and physical stats through inherent bonuses and a size increase while Abyssal gives you claws and a couple resistances. My suggestions are below the spoiler.
Transmutation: Enhancement - Crossblooded Orc/Abyssal - Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist. Go for the highest Strength you can possibly get and use your transmutations to buff physical stats and take on the forms of other powerful creatures. At Level 10 you can cast Empowered Bull's Strength (take a metamagic reducing trait if you want) along with Powerful Change to gain a +8 Enhancement bonus to Strength, which stacks with your two +2 Inherent bonuses from bloodlines for a massive +12 bonus over whatever creature you decide to shapeshift into. You can even hand out some of these bonuses to allies who want to get in on that natural attack fad.
Transmutation: Enhancement - Protean Bloodline - Spell Specialist / Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist. This build is more of a late-game star and doesn't really start rolling until Level 7 when you can finally have Potent Magic, School Understanding, and Bloodline Development after taking Extra Arcanist Exploit twice. Pick a strong control or debuff spell at each level for Signature Spells. Use the Empowered+Powerful Change combo listed above to grant yourself a +8 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence plus Potent Magic to boost your save DCs by a total of +7 over normal. And hey, your spell progression is already terrible - why not dip into Mesmerist for an at-will -2 to Will saves and just focus on those? Who cares if you cast at a full two spell levels lower than an equivalent Wizard if your DC for Hideous Laughter is 23 before the Potent Magic boost or any Spell Focus feats? Just so we're clear, DC is 10 + 2 (level) + 8 (26 Intelligence - start with 18, +8 from Empowered Fox's Cunning and Powerful Change) + 1 Signature Spell is DC 21, Hypnotic Stare reduces Will saves by 2 making it an effective DC 23.
No, I do not actually suggest trying to build that - it sounds like something a legitimate powergamer might attempt. Point is, Transmutation: Enhancement gives some decent ability score buffs and takes pressure off of you to purchase a belt or headband. Brown Fur Transmuter's ability to boost the Enhancement bonus of spells is strong, especially when you combine it with metamagic to increase your ability score bonus (I applied the +2 after Empowered to reach +8). This is just as powerful on a casting arcanist as it is on a melee arcanist, although each has specific combos that work better.
I would type more, but it's 12:53 and I have a project to finish before a presentation at 8:30 or so in the morning. Good night everyone!
Beefstick and the Brain
I'm pretty sure the inherent bonuses from crossblooded orc and abyssal will not stack.
Beefstick and the BrainI'm pretty sure the inherent bonuses from crossblooded orc and abyssal will not stack.
& the last time Empowered Bull's Strength worked was D&D 3.0.
Beefstick and the BrainI'm pretty sure the inherent bonuses from crossblooded orc and abyssal will not stack.
Was not aware of that. Also forgot that Crossblooded doesn't let you take both at once - oops. Still a good idea for the Strength and AC bonuses from Orc coupled with natural attacks and resistances from Abyssal, but not as strong.
& the last time Empowered Bull's Strength worked was D&D 3.0.Beefstick and the BrainI'm pretty sure the inherent bonuses from crossblooded orc and abyssal will not stack.
Must be a house rule my group has used for so long that I forgot it was a house rule. That plus running on fumes last night. Ugh.
Thanks for the responses! I apologize for taking so long to come back to this.
So, assuming I decide to try this out (we haven't played this game since I posed the question), and I'm already set on the Teleportation sub-school for the Wizard + School Understanding combo (and can you combine compatible sub-schools? Like Teleportation and Extradimension, where both sub-schools replace different base school powers??? Haven't gotten an answer on that question over HERE), what would be a good/fun bloodline to choose for the Sorcerer + Bloodline Development combination? I'd like it to fit with my teleporter/dimension hopper/"Nightcrawler/Azazel" theme, but I'll entertain any suggestions. I'm more interested in utility and FUN over being a glass cannon.
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So, you're trying to combine School Savant Arcanist with Wizard schools and Bloodline powers through Bloodline Development? Do I have that right?
If so, I suppose it's plausible. The latter simply says they must be the same and their levels stack, and that School Savant doesn't have the "cannot select" clause in relation to School Understanding, which means both subjects would stack. So, per RAW, it stacks, but I'm almost positive that RAI results in not being stackable, and that an errata will take place, denying the ability to do so.
As far as being able to choose the same school (even if sub-schools), I'm not sure, as the RAW isn't clear. Stacking two wizard schools (which means you'd have to choose 4 separate opposed schools, I will add,) is akin to trying to stack two cleric domains. In a Cleric's case, you can't take the same domain twice, even if it has optional sub-domains that you can choose to have vary. As such, I feel that the Wizard would deal with a similar issue, in that he can't take the same school twice, even if it has optional sub-schools (meaning Evocation and Admixture, for example, can't be taken).
If you're wanting a good bloodline, that's difficult to determine, since most bloodlines suck, and their benefits vary on what you want your character to accomplish. If you want to improve your spells, the Arcane bloodline works well. If you want some other utility, that depends on what you're looking for. There's also the Eldritch Heritage feat chain which can accomplish these same things on another level, and it stacks, so I would consider that feat chain if you're wanting to focus on expanding bloodline/school benefits.
But, as others have said, the delay in spell progression will kill you (even if you can shore up missing CL via Magical Knack). You're going to be stuck on 1st level spells all the way until 6th level. By the time you're casting 2nd level spells, their enemy wizard is casting 4th or 5th level spells. While I understand you're not wanting an optimization sort of thing, even without optimization, having spell level differences like that can really ruin the sort of impact you'll have on your game, and as you level, those spell level differences will be more and more important.
Darksol: You misunderstand some of what I'm saying. I'll try to be brief.
First, let me address the "stacking two wizard schools" thing. That is NOT what I'm talking about. Stacking two schools would suggest taking ALL the benefits of multiple schools. That is NOT what I'm suggesting. Here's a breakdown:
Conjuration Powers:
- Summoner's Charm (not bad)
- Acid Dart (lame!)
- Dimensional Steps (me likey!)
Teleportation Sub-school Powers:
- Summoner's Charm
- Shift (replaces Acid Dart - much better!)
- Dimensional Steps
Extradimension Sub-school Powers:
- Reshape Space (replaces Summoner's Charm - not better, but I like it)
- Acid Dart (barf!)
- Dimensional Steps
As you can see, Teleportation replaces Acid Dart, while Extradimension replaces Summoner's Charm. Both sub-schools keep Dimensional Steps. I'm suggesting it might be possible to combine Teleportation with Extradimension because they both replace different abilities of the base school, much in the way combining archetypes only works if the archetypes don't overlap. So, the result would be:
Extradimension-Teleportation Hybrid Sub-School Powers:
- Reshape Space (replacing Summoner's Charm)
- Shift (replacing Acid Dart)
- Dimensional Steps (no change)
This is not specializing in two schools, otherwise I'd be getting 6 school powers. It's not even combining two schools, as they are both sub-schools of the same base school. If this can be done with class archetypes, why couldn't it be done with sub-schools (treating the base school in the same manner as a base class)?
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I'm not good at being brief, hahaha, so I won't explain how you misinterpreted the other stuff. I've never actually played a Sorcerer before (the limited spells known really puts me off), so I've never explored the Sorcerer bloodline options. I'm trying to figure out what bloodlines are good and/or fun and/or don't totally suck! Hahaha!
Even if I misunderstood (you're trying to combine two subschools into one school and not take two separate schools entirely, which is still plausible to do), my analogy to domains still remains intact.
You can't take two subdomains of the same parent domain and combine them into a single choice, even if they replace different effects (and spells at each given level), because altering the benefits of a domain (or subdomain) usually isn't permitted. Nobody's tried to combine, say, the Ash and Smoke subdomains of the Fire domain into a single set of benefits, and if they did, not only would it be suboptimal, but chances are no sane GM (PFS or not) would allow it.
While schools aren't exactly the same as domains, the parallel of stacking them is quite apparent, since schools are to domains as subschools are to subdomains, in that you can't substitute school powers any more than you can substitute domain powers of a given domain. The same applies for things like Wildblooded/Crossblooded Sorcerers, and even Archetypes in general. In other words, it's a package deal. You either take the whole package, or you don't get the package at all.
Also, I don't mind being not-brief. I've written pages upon pages within a single post, so if you want to break it down further than what you have (though I don't think you need to, I believe I've gathered enough information), by all means do so.
Again, as for bloodlines, think about what it is that you, as a character, want to specialize in. Do you want more utility options? Do you want spellcasting improvement options? What about miscellaneous offensive capabilities? These are the things you need to ask yourself when you construct the rest of your character, and when you find the answer to that question, the bloodline choice should become apparent.
(It's lazy-talk for "I don't know," but it's still solid advice for somebody who doesn't even precisely know what answer to give.)
In regards to Fire's Smoke and Ash, I've done that. Subdomains are pretty much Archetypes for Domains.
EDIT: Looking at the rules and FAQs for Subdomains though I can't find any text saying you can take more than one.
