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I am working up a character for PFS play and thought I would toss it up here to see if anyone had any suggestions for optimizing it before I start playing it.
Other than 'Don't use a Gnome, you idiot!' :)
All PFS rules apply (20pt buy, only PFS legal materials)
Race: Gnome
Str: 14 (16, -2 Racial)
Dex: 14
Con: 12 (10, +2 Racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 (14, +2 Racial)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Quain Martial Artist
1. Unchained Monk 1 (Scaled Fist Archetype)
Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Feat: Power Attack
Monk Bonus Feat: Dragon Style
2. Bard 1 (Archaeologist Archetype)
Bardic Knowledge, Archaeologist's Luck +1, Cantrips/Spells
3. Unchained Monk 2
Evasion
Feat: Weapon Focus – Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus Feat: Dodge
4. Unchained Monk 3
Fast movement, Ki Pool (½ monk level + Cha mod), Ki Strike (magic)
+1 Str
5. Unchained Monk 4
Draconic Mettle
Ki Power - Draconic Fury (same as elemental fury),
Feat: Dragon Ferocity
6. Unchained Monk 5
Purity of body, Style Strike – Flying Kick (1/round)
7. Dragon Disciple 1
Blood of dragons, Natural Armor (+1)
Bloodline Feat: Toughness
Feat: Improved Trip
8. Dragon Disciple 2
Ability boost (Str +2), Dragon Bite 1d4
+1 Str
9. Dragon Disciple 3
Breath Weapon (1d6 per DD level)
Feat: Extra Ki
10. Dragon Disciple 4
Ability boost (Str +2), Natural Armor (+1)
11. Unchained Monk 6
Ki Power - Qinggong Power - Barkskin
Monk Bonus Feat: Improved Grapple
Feat: Iron Will
12. Unchained Monk 7
Ki Strike (cold iron/silver)
+1 Str
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If you want to melee a lot, eldritch scrapper sorcerer is better than bard. Archaelogist's luck is nice, but the sorcerer spell list and progression is so much better than the bard's. If you you to really melee well at the expense of spellcasting, 4 levels of draconic bloodrager can you into dragon disciple. I know you said don't say don't play a gnome, but I have to say that the small size and str penalty really hurt your damage output and your cmb. From a pure min/max point of view nagaji is clearly the best fit for a build like this. +2 to str and cha plus +1 natural armor is pretty good.
Why switch back to monk for the last couple of levels? You should be able to get a +3 amulet of mighty fists by then so the ki strike doesn't really matter, with no other feats supporting it grappling isn't the best idea at level 11+, and a couple more levels of DD gets you +2 con and blindsense. If you're in it just for the BAB/bonus feats fighter or ranger might be better.
a +3 amulet of mighty fists is 36,000 gp, while it may be possible to get at those levels, it's still mighty expensive.
Has anyone actually compared the numbers for the scaled fist single class vs the various other options out there? Doing a dragon disciple with it is really appealing but I can't figure out if it does much for you, since you can't use natural weapons with flurry.
lv12 full unchained scaled monk compared to lv7.
extra flurry attack, 2 monk ac, 20 bonus movespeed, 2d6 punch instead of 1d8, better scaling on barkskin ki power +2ac, +3/+3/+2 on saves, another option for style strike, Improved evasion, and 2 ki powers, 5 bab. 5d10 = PFS 30hp. if FCB for hp then 35hp. +3 ki pool.
bard 1 DD 4 gives
+2/+3/+5 on saves, +3 ac, +4 str, 1 feat, 3bab, heroism spell, +1 luck to lots as swift, 1d8+4d12 = 33hp.
sorc 1 DD 4 gives
+2/+1/+5 on saves, +3 ac, +4 str, 1 feat, 3bab, mage armor from class +4ac, 32hp.
*~ means ish. So ~= is close enough and >~ is slightly greater maybe.
so on accuracy the builds are the same at base, the bard gets +3 from stuff though. bard > monk = sorc
Damage is +2.5 for monk and +3 bard, +2 sorc. Monk gets 2 extra attacks, 1 at -10 though. monk > bard ~= sorc
for saves the bard gets +3 will for +1 fort, sorc is +3 will for +1 fort and +2 ref. bard > monk >~ sorc
AC, the depends a lot if the monk has a source of mage armor beforehand or not. monk at 4, bard at 3, sorcerer at 7 or 3. So assuming mage armor was already covered, monk > bard = sorcerer
so all tallied the monk probably comes out ahead overall, BUT the bard version is close, especially if you have heroism and luck going, and has a better will save.
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Has there been a change that I am unaware of? As far as I understand unchained monk could not take any of the standard monk archtypes..
Scaled fist from the Legacy of Dragons book specifically has rules for use with unchained monk. I opted for this archetype mainly for the charisma replacing wisdom, which works out better for the gnome since they get a bonus in it.
I had considered going sorcerer instead of bard, but the archaeologist bard combined with the fates favored trait means a +2 luck bonus as a swift action to attack, damage, saves, and skills. Which is a rather nice buff to help out with the lost damage from taking a race with a Str penalty. I lose out on a couple spells, but I think the trade off for archaeologists luck is worth it.
I mainly decided to go Dragon Disciple for the stat boosts, armor boosts, and hit dice. 4 levels gets me +4 Str, +2 AC, 28 HP, equivalent of +3 bard levels for spells. Claws and Resistance (DR/AC) from the draconic bloodline.
I do have 1 question about the resistance from the draconic bloodline...if I go with Imperial - Forest Dragon for my type, does that mean I get DR/5 -vs- piercing since that is what their breath weapon is?
Why switch back to monk for the last couple of levels? You should be able to get a +3 amulet of mighty fists by then so the ki strike doesn't really matter, with no other feats supporting it grappling isn't the best idea at level 11+, and a couple more levels of DD gets you +2 con and blindsense. If you're in it just for the BAB/bonus feats fighter or ranger might be better.
I had not thought about just taking the last 2 levels as DD instead of monk...if I did that I would get blindsense, another bloodline feat, +2 con, more HP, and +1 more caster level...that does sound better than the ki power, ki strike, and monk feat.
Has anyone actually compared the numbers for the scaled fist single class vs the various other options out there? Doing a dragon disciple with it is really appealing but I can't figure out if it does much for you, since you can't use natural weapons with flurry.
The natural weapons are pretty wasted for this build, but I think the other benefits make it worthwhile. Plus it fits thematically with a scaled fist/dragon style monk as the base class.
One last thing...any recommendations for which bard spells to take? I had forgotten than enlarge person and mage armor are not on the bard spell list...silly me.
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With only the equivalent of 5 bard levels, I will not have access to level 3 spells, so Blink, Displacement, Good Hope, and Haste are sadly off the table. I will end up with 6 cantrips, 4 level 1 spells and 3 level 2 spells.
I was thinking:
Level-0: Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation (Ghost Sound and Resistance added with levels)
Level-1: Cure Light Wounds, Comprehend Languages (Dancing Darkness and Feather Fall with levels)
Level-2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Heroism, Invisibility
Has there been a change that I am unaware of? As far as I understand unchained monk could not take any of the standard monk archtypes..Scaled fist from the Legacy of Dragons book specifically has rules for use with unchained monk. I opted for this archetype mainly for the charisma replacing wisdom, which works out better for the gnome since they get a bonus in it.
I had considered going sorcerer instead of bard, but the archaeologist bard combined with the fates favored trait means a +2 luck bonus as a swift action to attack, damage, saves, and skills. Which is a rather nice buff to help out with the lost damage from taking a race with a Str penalty. I lose out on a couple spells, but I think the trade off for archaeologists luck is worth it.
I mainly decided to go Dragon Disciple for the stat boosts, armor boosts, and hit dice. 4 levels gets me +4 Str, +2 AC, 28 HP, equivalent of +3 bard levels for spells. Claws and Resistance (DR/AC) from the draconic bloodline.
I had not thought about just taking the last 2 levels as DD instead of monk...if I did that I would get blindsense, another bloodline feat, +2 con, more HP, and +1 more caster level...that does sound better than the ki power, ki strike, and monk feat.
Has anyone actually compared the numbers for the scaled fist single class vs the various other options out there? Doing...
Right, but when you look at the numbers, the strength is a wash compared to scaling damage dice for damage and BAB for accuracy, the natural armor edge isn't much vs the monk's scaling AC bonus. Toughness is probably a wash with any given monk bonus feat, and the D12 only really matters if your DM let's you max HP.
You lose out on all sorts of monk class features in the meantime. I'm not saying it's an awful trade off, but the mechanics definitely don't look as cool as the fluff at first glance.
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Right, but when you look at the numbers, the strength is a wash compared to scaling damage dice for damage and BAB for accuracy, the natural armor edge isn't much vs the monk's scaling AC bonus. Toughness is probably a wash with any given monk bonus feat, and the D12 only really matters if your DM let's you max HP.
You lose out on all sorts of monk class features in the meantime. I'm not saying it's an awful trade off, but the mechanics definitely don't look as cool as the fluff at first glance.
Lets have a closer look at a pure Monk build -vs- the Monk/Bard/DD version.
Overall, I think the DD version comes out a similar in power level, but more well rounded.
Offensively, base unarmed damage is similar (pure monk = d10 (average 5.5) -vs- DD = d6 (average 3.5) with +2 from the enhanced Str), both have the same average of 5.5, the pure monk has a higher max damage, the DD has a higher min damage. The DD can easily be augmented with archeo. luck, and spells, and would already have all his monk damage boosts by level 5 (Dragon style, Dragon Ferocity, Elemental Fury, Flying Kick). Losing 3 BAB costs the DD an iterative attack (Monk 12/7/2 -vs- DD 9/4), I don't know all the math to calculate the DPR...losing that last attack probably won't hurt too much, due to its low number giving it a low % to hit. (If someone wants to run the numbers, I would love to see what you come up with)
Defensively the DD seems to comes out ahead, higher AC (by 1 point), higher HP (89 base + higher con -vs- 76 base with lower con), more rounded saves (plain monk = 8, 8, 4 -vs- DD = 7, 8, 6) and blindsense.
Utility wise, the DD gains bardic knowledge, the bards/DDs skill list (though loses a some ranks total Pure monk = 48, DD = 38), 6 cantrips, 4 level 1 and 3 level 2 spells, while losing a couple ki powers, 1 style strike, improved evasion, and ki strike (cold iron/silver/lawful). I should have an amulet of mighty fists by level 12, negating the need for ki strike. The bard spells should replace any utility lost from the missing ki powers, while freeing up more ki points for offense. Flying kick is far and away the best style strike, which I will have, so losing a second strike is not a huge loss. Improved evasion is the only real loss, hopefully the much higher health pool is enough to counter it.
What you ignore is the extra attack from Flurry at the 10th Monk level, and Flying Kick's range (20ft on DD, 40ft on pure Monk).
With a +3 amulet and +4 strength belt, without archeologist luck, buffs, the DD build from your first post does 55.8 DPR (with extra attack from ki but without Elemental Fury) against an average CR12 monster, or 66.1 DPRwith Heroism. The straight Monk build does 69.6 DPR.
With Elemental Fury, that would be 63.3 (DD), 75.1 (DD with Heroism), and 82.8 (Monk).
The second iterative does 4.46 DPR, which drops to 1.31 with Power Attack (which decreases the overall damage to 68.9 - yes, the full Monk is actually better of not using Power Attack).
The pure Monk has higher damage, a second Style Strike (e.g. Elbow Smash for moar damage), and more Ki Powers (like Ki Leech for almost infinite ki), while the DD has spells and can easily use wands.
guys, did you not see my breakdown of the 3 different builds being discussed? Do you feel I missed anything?
guys, did you not see my breakdown of the 3 different builds being discussed? Do you feel I missed anything?
I had not seen it, no! That does look helpful. Although if Derklord's calculations are accurate you may have understated the damage edge by a pure monk.
The other thing I wonder about is how the sorcerer:s superior casting factors in, if at all.
Pure monk's DPR wins, having an extra full bab attack is huge for DPR calculations.
The spellcasting I feel is actually superior for the bard ASSUMING mage armor is already taken care of somehow (party member and pearl or wand with UMD trained). As I feel heroism is better than any lv2 spells the sorcerer brings.
I don't believe Derklord's calculations are accurate or he's not factoring in stuff that he should be. Monk wins all things besides will saving throws. Which the bard wins by a good amount.
2d6 punch instead of 1d8 is all the damage boosters monk gets, And I didn't factor in dragon style/ferocity which gives +1 damage to the DD paths. I also didn't factor in fates favored for +1 to bard stuff, BUT the monk 7 over DD 6 is that you get barksking as a ki power.
So here we go.
Str 22 from belt or lvls or whatever and a +2 amulet both using ki for extra attack having dragon style already on with dragon ferocity.
Full lv12 monk.
12+6+2(amulet) = +20 for 2d6+14/+20 for 2d6+11/+20 for 2d6+11/+20 for 2d6+11/+15 for 2d6+11/+10 for 2d6+11 = 67.41 DPR against CR12
Monk5 and bard and DD6 with bard luck already going.
9+8+2(amulet)+2(bard luck)+2(heroism) = +23 for 1d8+20/+23 for 1d8+16/+23 for 1d8+16/+18 for 1d8+16 = 71.37 DPR against CR 20
If we turn on elemental fury turn before
monk = 80.09 DPR
DD = 82.95 DPR
So the bards accuracy boosts help it win DPR. I'm a little surprised, but I do feel the monks attack routine has low accuracy, am I missing something? Now the bard does suffer from swift action overload. It can't swift for extra attack the round it starts bard luck, so it takes more turns to reach max DPR. And the monk version can "pounce" further.
Well, there are several factors which the monk has going for it that are hard to account for. It has 4 more ki points, and possibly ki leech, which means it can throw those extra attacks out more often. It gets two more style strikes. Hammerfist and Elbow Smash can be used for some big extra damage, and leg sweep can situationally be huge accuracy boost and tactical advantage.
Your damage for the DD path looks a little high to me. Did you count Heroism as a +2 to damage by mistake? Also, assuming you'll always have Heroism up is generous, given you have like castings of it that last an hour. Sometimes you'll want to use it out of combat for skills, sometimes you'll need a different spell, and sometimes combat will surprise you and you won't have it up. I think assuming you always luck on is a little safer if you take Lingering performance. However, that does use up a feat and a trait for the DD. So the monk can probably snag Weapon Focus or something to close the accuracy gap, and there's lots of fun things he can do with that trait.
The monk 12 may also have access to superior feats. Medusa's Wrath for example, and/or Shatter Defenses to further lower enemy AC. You could snag perfect strike with an adamantine back up weapon. And anything you just need higher BAB for. And I haven't looked close enough to see if there's an edge those extra ki powers can provide either.
I'm thinking the monk comes out the superior martial anyway you slice this, based on being less resource dependent, better damage, and more tactical flexibility in combat. The bard version gets them spells though, which probably helps with it's utility.
DD damage. 1d8+8str +8 or 4 from dragon style +2 luck+2 amulet = 20 or 16
And yes, this was to compare a best situation DD build to the monk build, since best situation is what everyone love to compare against. But heroism will be up a lot of the time, You have 2 from class and 1 from stat is 3 castings. so while not up all the time, there's a good chance it'd be up when you're wanting it.
But like I have said twice now.
so all tallied the monk probably comes out ahead overall, BUT the bard version is close, especially if you have heroism and luck going, and has a better will save.
Monk wins all things besides will saving throws. Which the bard wins by a good amount.
I feel that solo monk is probably the better overall fighter. Bard into DD just has will and potentially all saves a little better for a small loss of fighting power. So if that is cool with the OP and wants the theme or saves or whatever for going DD he's not far behind straight monk.
I don't believe Derklord's calculations are accurate or he's not factoring in stuff that he should be.
I did indeed miss things, including Archaeologist’s Luck because I failed to realize that it was a swift action to activate. Let me get back to you.
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Doing a bit of re-thinking now. Both ways (Pure monk -vs- DD) seem pretty solid. I was originally afraid that starting with a handicapped Str race would be too large a hurdle for pure monk, which is what drew me to the DD option. Looking at some of the numbers now, it does not appear to be as large a handicap as I thought...but the added utility from spells, higher HP and higher saves for a slightly lower offense is still pretty tempting...plus the flavor or a 3 foot tall dragon monk really appeals to me :)
It's a handicap, but once you're okay with that what you do is the same. my calculations had 22 str monk at lv12. Which is only just reachable with a +6 belt and 2 level increases. But either way you have your starting str, which effects any build you do.
I'd kinda suggest seeing if you can't fit in the trait to raise your bard caster level by 2 to get longer heroism.
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Yea, that low Str is what drew me to the DD, which lets me jump up to a 21 Str before items, 27 with a +6 belt.
At 10min/level, do you think the +2 caster levels would be big enough to offset the extra +1 luck from Fates Favored or the +1 unarmed damage from Quain Martial Artist? It doesn't feel like an extra 20 minutes would be enough to carry the buff all the way through in a lot of adventures, if I dropped fates favored would I be better off going with sorcerer for access to mage armor, enlarge person, etc?
1st, do you plan to have an easy/reliable way to get mage armor without going sorcerer?
2nd, Fate's favored is too good to pass up, so I'd either drop the +1 damage or take the feat for extra traits. since you'll easily have 3 castings +20 minutes a casting is an extra hour of coverage. YMMV if that's worth it and how many feats you have free. And Like I said, it's only a slight recommendation, the build is fine without this trait.
3rd, remember, the sorcerer route pulls up a fair bit shorter in combat and saves and cool things you can do. Could be quite worth it if you don't have access to mage armor otherwise, but if you do, like taking UMD ranks with your good charisma for wand use, then this route is probably the least good.
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It is for PFS play, so I'll keep a wand of mage armor around...but having someone who can either cast it or use the wand is not a 100% guarantee. I'll train a couple ranks in UMD, but I won't have the skill points necessary to keep it maxed (especially once I hit the 2 ranks per level DD levels).
I'll play around with some feats and such, see if I can squeeze it in :)
if you can't get it easy than sorcerer for many hours a day of it becomes a nice big AC boost.
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Ok, here is the revised and updated plan for this character.
Race: Gnome
Str: 14 (16, -2 Racial)
Dex: 14
Con: 12 (10, +2 Racial)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 (14, +2 Racial)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack, Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Gnome Alternate Racial Traits: Academician, Dark Vision, Fell Magic, Gift of Tongues
1. Unchained Monk 1 (Scaled Fist Archetype)
Draconic Might (Use Cha mod instead of Wis for monk abilities)
Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike 1d4, Stunning Fist
Feat: Extra Traits
Monk Bonus Feat: Dragon Style
2. Bard 1 (Archaeologist Archetype)
Bardic Knowledge, Archaeologist's Luck +1, Cantrips/Spells
3. Unchained Monk 2
Evasion
Feat: Power Attack
Monk Bonus Feat: Dodge
4. Unchained Monk 3
Fast movement, Ki Pool (½ monk level + Cha mod), Ki Strike (magic)
+1 Str
5. Unchained Monk 4
Improved Unarmed Strike 1d6
Draconic Mettle (+2 bonus on saving throws -vs- all fear, paralysis, and sleep effects.)
Ki Power - Draconic Fury (same as elemental fury),
Feat: Dragon Ferocity
6. Unchained Monk 5
Purity of body (Immune to diseases)
Style Strike – Flying Kick (1/round)
7. Dragon Disciple 1 (Forest Dragon Bloodline)
Bloodline Power: Claws 1d3
Blood of Dragons, Natural Armor (+1)
Bloodline Feat: Toughness
Feat: Iron Will
8. Dragon Disciple 2
Dragon Bite 1d4
Ability boost (Str +2),
+1 Str
9. Dragon Disciple 3
Bloodline Power: Dragon Resistances (DR 2 -vs- Piercing, Natural Armor +1)
Breath Weapon (1d6 piercing/DD level, 30' cone 1/day, DC 10 + ½ DD level + Cha mod)
Feat: Extra Ki
10. Dragon Disciple 4
Ability boost (Str +2), Natural Armor (+1)
11. Dragon Disciple 5
Blindsense 30 ft.,
Bloodline Feat: Improved Initiative
Feat: Weapon Focus – Unarmed Strike
12. Dragon Disciple 6
Bloodline Power: Claws 1d4
Ability boost (Con +2)
+1 Str
Items:
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, 18k
Belt of Giant Strength +6, 36k
Ring of Protection +3, 18k
Cloak of Resistance +3, 9k
Boots of Speed, 6k
Deliquescent Gloves, 8k
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4, 8k
Pale Blue Rhomboid (Ioun Stone), 8k
Total = 111k of ~113k estimated for level 12 PFS character