snake fang druid builds :

[666bender]

i LOVE the idea of a no wild-shape druid. although the lose is indeed a big one...

what build do you think will be a great one?
i DONT want to be a caster only - but cast and something else.
Archery? (lose out on the sneak attacks)
weapon and shield ?
2 weapons ?
something else?

[Prometeus]

I compiled a few builds that are fun to play, specially an Archer and Monted Druid

Builds

Prometeus Guide to Druids

Hope this helps

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Crocodile Domain (Mauler archetype for your Caiman)
VMC Rogue for more Sneak Attack
Mauler plus Animal Growth makes your Caiman Large
Use your familiar as a flank buddy, buff with your spells, and lay down the pain. Also, try being Lizardfolk or Scaleheart Skinwalker for this, maybe go for a natural attack build.

[666bender]

Tyrant Lizard King wrote:

Crocodile Domain (Mauler archetype for your Caiman)

VMC Rogue for more Sneak Attack
Mauler plus Animal Growth makes your Caiman Large
Use your familiar as a flank buddy, buff with your spells, and lay down the pain. Also, try being Lizardfolk or Scaleheart Skinwalker for this, maybe go for a natural attack build.

familiar should not enter the front. 50% of a d8 HP ...it will die really fast.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Quite frankly, I really don't like Pathfinder wildshape for the same reason I am not big on summons. Too much nitpicky bookkeeping. I wish you could just pick form a small list of animals, elementals, etc every few levels and just use it's physical stats and your mental stats. These beast form and elemental body spells are way too convoluted to use. Way too much of a headache.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

@666bender to be fair, a familiar would have half of the Druid's maximum HP. Now that's still not very much but for a frontline familiar that is a Mauler you will most certainly want the Mauler's Endurance feat (+2 HP/level). At that point your familiar will have almost as much HP as you do, not to mention it will have higher AC and DR5/magic. Let's say level 10 Druid with +2 CON mod and average rolls... 60 HP, so the familiar has 30 HP. Mauler's Endurance cranks it up to 50 HP. With all the size and Strength bonuses from Mauler and Nat armor bonuses it's gonna be a lot more efficient in close combat than the Druid will be (before buff spells anyway). A Mauler will definitely have some staying power while the Nature Fang flanks and stacks up that sneak attack damage with a barrage of natural attacks.

[Shinzaemon]

I couldn't stop thinking about Nature Fang druids with the crocodile domain and rogue-vmc all day.

I'm not entirely sold on the survivability of a mauler caiman, but you did a lot to calm my nerves Lizard King. Going for a mauler makes me want an 18 con, making for an all around beefier duo. I'm still not sold on the survivabilty of a low level mauler caiman, but you probably shouldn't start using one until you start picking up Sneak Attack Dice anyways. At level 1, even if you invested in 18 con,FCB in hp, and mauler's endurance you're looking at a 13 hp druid and 8 hp croc. I'd be scared to death to rumble with that.

And then there's the 10ft land speed. Longstrider seems like the only real solution, it's just annoying you're pretty much forced to have it up for the familiar to go anywhere. Again, this seems a detriment at lower levels where you want to be prepared with as many defensive buffs as possible. Are there any other viable ways to turn the familiar into a flanking buddy at lower levels? I'm thinking improved familiar is a very smart pickup at level 9, but that leaves 8 levels of trying to make the caiman familiar do work.

I'm also kinda stuck on the combat style choice. TWF is the obvious one for optimizing sneak attack, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of shield style with an open hand for spellcasting. Spellcasting + Combat Reflexes is my favorite way to create melee casters and shield bashing seems like a nice AoO tactic with the free bullrushes you'll pick up from shield master. Natural attacks is also a very real option, especially considering all of the druid's best buffs target natural weapons.

I'm not usually a huge fan of VMC's but I think the rogue VMC fits the nature fang just perfectly. Trapfinding and the right traits tacked onto the druid skill set and spell list makes for an awesome and very effective wilderness rogue type. VMC Rogue + Nature Fang + Crocodile Domain + Accomplished Sneak Attacker gives you 6d6 sneak attack dice at level 11, on par with your average rogue. Add to that 6th level druid spells and an improved familiar and this build seems to have a lot to offer in the way of role versatility and action economy.

Here's an incomplete level 12 build stub. Thanks for the inspiration Tyrant.

Race: Not sure yet, and one of the beauties of the build. Human is obvious, but I also really like samsaran for poaching the best buff spells off of the cleric/inquisitor or paladin list. Tengu makes a lot of sense for getting three natural attacks right away if that's what we're going for,but then maybe so does that one race that gets a gore and hooves since claws and a bite are so easy to pick up via spells. Half-Orc is always a favorite of mine and great at producing melee druids. Lizardfolk makes the same sense as tengu does but also wins on some flavor points. Dwarf seems perfect for the mauler familiar route with the con and wis boosts and the longhammer is a great weapon pickup for the two-handed style chain. I'm definitely floundering when it comes to race, but I don't consider that a bad thing. I love the possibilities.

1. Nature Fang 1. Crocodile Domain, Open Feat
2. Nature Fang 2.
3. Nature Fang 3. VMC Rogue - Trapfinding
4. Nature Fang 4. Open Slayer Talent SA: 1d6
5. Nature Fang 5. Accomplished Sneak Attacker SA: 2d6
6. Nature Fang 6. Open Slayer Talent SA: 3d6
7. Nature Fang 7. VMC Rogue - Sneak Attack SA: 4d6
8. Nature Fang 8. Open Slayer Talent
9. Nature Fang 9. Improved Familiar
10. Nature Fang 10. Open Slayer Talent
11. Nature Fang 11. VMC Rogue - Evasion SA: 6d6
12. Nature Fang 12. Open Advanced Slayer Talent

Each one of the open slayer talents can be used to pick up combat feats, and there are up to three open feats if human is chosen (one or two at first level and one at twelfth thanks to the advanced slayer talent). This gives a lot of build flexibility and I'm struggling to decide how best to round out the character.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Yeah, at low levels the familiar would be quite squishy but so would the Druid. I know looking at the HP alone is concerning but it's AC will eventually be much higher than the Druid's is. It would start with an AC 15 at level 1. I'm glad you at least agree that it's a fun build. The Mauler's battle form gets a boost to STR and CON, does the extra CON do anything for it's HP?

[Shinzaemon]

It would make sense to me if the con boost gave your familiar hp like rage does and goes away when the mauler isn't medium size.

Not only do I think this build is fun, but rather powerful too. Losing wildshape is big, sure, but I like how many feats this druid gets to sculpt its tactics. Even after dedicating space to a vmc, accomplished sneak attacker and improved familiar you can have as many as 7 feats to work with in 12 levels. Being able to wield magic weapons and such is also a nice offensive boon wildshapers don't use much of. I think this build is a great alternative for melee druids that don't want to wildshape for their effectiveness (whatever the reason). Personally I'm just a little sick of wildshape right now so this approach is a breath of fresh air. Going samsaran to pick up divine favor, heroism, divine power, and righteous might is looking better and better to me...

[Kris Verschaeve]

Shinzaemon wrote:

I couldn't stop thinking about Nature Fang druids with the crocodile domain and rogue-vmc all day.

I'm not entirely sold on the survivability of a mauler caiman, but you did a lot to calm my nerves Lizard King. Going for a mauler makes me want an 18 con, making for an all around beefier duo. I'm still not sold on the survivabilty of a low level mauler caiman, but you probably shouldn't start using one until you start picking up Sneak Attack Dice anyways. At level 1, even if you invested in 18 con,FCB in hp, and mauler's endurance you're looking at a 13 hp druid and 8 hp croc. I'd be scared to death to rumble with that.

And then there's the 10ft land speed. Longstrider seems like the only real solution, it's just annoying you're pretty much forced to have it up for the familiar to go anywhere. Again, this seems a detriment at lower levels where you want to be prepared with as many defensive buffs as possible. Are there any other viable ways to turn the familiar into a flanking buddy at lower levels? I'm thinking improved familiar is a very smart pickup at level 9, but that leaves 8 levels of trying to make the caiman familiar do work.

I'm also kinda stuck on the combat style choice. TWF is the obvious one for optimizing sneak attack, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of shield style with an open hand for spellcasting. Spellcasting + Combat Reflexes is my favorite way to create melee casters and shield bashing seems like a nice AoO tactic with the free bullrushes you'll pick up from shield master. Natural attacks is also a very real option, especially considering all of the druid's best buffs target natural weapons.

I'm not usually a huge fan of VMC's but I think the rogue VMC fits the nature fang just perfectly. Trapfinding and the right traits tacked onto the druid skill set and spell list makes for an awesome and very effective wilderness rogue type. VMC Rogue + Nature Fang + Crocodile Domain + Accomplished Sneak Attacker gives you 6d6 sneak attack dice at level 11, on par...

Get two levels of eldritch guardian fighter so your cayman familiar gets your combat feats.

Get one level (or 2see later) on flowing monk.
get combat reflexes improved unarmed strike from flowing monk

get rogue crawl from slayer talent.
Get monkey shine, intrepid rescuer, and paired opportunists.

use a reach weapon

when combat starts you and your cayman take a nap (drop prone free action) and casts sexy druid spells.

You are protected from ranged because of prone. When somebody attacks you with reach, you and your cayman counterattack with an AOO with BAB +4 before they hit you because of intrepid rescuer and paired opportunists. If somebody moves from 2 spaces away to one space away you and your cayman attack with BAB +4 because of intrepid rescuer and paired opportunists. Somebody attacks next to you, you got, you attack with BAB +4. In your turn the enemy is next to you. No problem. Cast a spell,ooh that provokes and the enemy attacks ? No problem you and your cayman AOO first and if he dies he doesn't make the attack so you don't have that concentration check. If he doesn't attack that well that's his loss.

Now the thing is with the second level of flowing monk you would actually be causing flat-footed on every AOO (which is now every time somebody attacks you), you know the holy grail for sneak attackers because of SAP master...

I'm trying to make a build like this but its got too many moving parts and I figure it comes online kinda late but if other people want to improve it, I'm interested... It's super feat hungry and therefore nature fang may not be the right chassis