Say a human is standing in an area of darkness. Some 80 ft. away is an enemy, carrying a torch.
Can the human see the enemy? Fire an arrow towards it?
Does it matter if the area of darkness is created by the Darkness spell or not? (we're still not talking about supernatural darkness, but ordinary darkness created by magic)
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Since we're likely dealing with a spell similar to Darkness or Deeper Darkness, consider the FAQ...
Darkness: Can a nonmagical light source increase the light level within the area of darkness if the light source is outside the spell's area?
No. Nonmagical light sources do not increase the light level within the spell's area, regardless of whether the light source is in the area or outside the area.
If I interpret correctly, then No, the human would not see outside of the area because light from the torch is incapable of permeating that area. Anything outside the area is just as dark(or dim) to him as the area within.
EDIT: Of course I could be Not a moron, and look at the FAQ Directly Afterwards...
Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?
No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.
..Meh...Whatever. Question answered right? -.-
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Does it matter if the area of darkness is created by the Darkness spell or not?
Yes.
A darkness spell would block the light of the torch. Mundane darkness would not.
Thus, in normal darkness (i.e. not being magically maintained) a human could see a torch in the distance and thus target the square the torchbearer is in. More precise targetting would logically depend on how far away the torchbearer is;
At 80' all you are going to see is the flame of the torch. The bearer effectively has total concealment and thus there is a 50% miss chance.
At 40' a normal torch would be providing dim light and thus the bearer would only have normal concealment... 20% miss chance.
At 20' the torch would be providing normal light, the miss chance is removed, and the attacker can deal precision damage.
From the CRB;
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness."
I think the question is if a person is standing in an area of darkness, and also in the area of a Darkness spell, and a nearby person is holding a torch and standing in the area of darkness, but OUTSIDE the area of the Darkness spell, does the person standing in the spell's area see the light of the torch and the person holding it?
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I think the question is if a person is standing in an area of darkness, and also in the area of a Darkness spell, and a nearby person is holding a torch and standing in the area of darkness, but OUTSIDE the area of the Darkness spell, does the person standing in the spell's area see the light of the torch and the person holding it?
See the FAQ quoted above: You cannot see outside the area of the Darkness spell if you are inside it
Since we're likely dealing with a spell similar to Darkness or Deeper Darkness, consider the FAQ...
Thanks for that link!
Thus, in normal darkness (i.e. not being magically maintained) a human could see a torch in the distance and thus target the square the torchbearer is in. More precise targetting would logically depend on how far away the torchbearer is;
At 80' all you are going to see is the flame of the torch. The bearer effectively has total concealment and thus there is a 50% miss chance.
At 40' a normal torch would be providing dim light and thus the bearer would only have normal concealment... 20% miss chance.
At 20' the torch would be providing normal light, the miss chance is removed, and the attacker can deal precision damage.
From the CRB;
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness."
Hm. That's rather backwards. The torchbearer is standing in an area of normal light. Thus, there should be no concealment miss chance. That's applying some very basic real world logic.
But maybe that's not relevant in this case. I can see the logic you're coming from. "40' away in torch light means normal concealment, regardless of which direction the light is coming from." Maybe it streamlines things a bit.
It's a sphere of darkness emanated from a source and enveloping everything else. That's the logic behind it. The "bright" light is a non-natural light source which is ignored as it's effectively "lower caster level" (as it has a caster level of 0) than the darkness effect, and so it doesn't matter: the light is blocked by the magic.
But various people will have differing preferences.
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It's a sphere of darkness emanated from a source and enveloping everything else. That's the logic behind it. The "bright" light is a non-natural light source which is ignored as it's effectively "lower caster level" (as it has a caster level of 0) than the darkness effect, and so it doesn't matter: the light is blocked by the magic.
But various people will have differing preferences.
As long as we're talking about magical darkness, I have no problem with this. The FAQ linked by Bane Wraith cleared this up nicely.
The logic-defying part is were you can't lie in ambush in a dark dungeon and shot at an approaching, torch-bearing enemy just because you're in the dark and don't have darkvison.
The rules are, I suppose, fairly clear on the subject. A character in darkness is effectively blinded and thus can't see. Not even the torch, 45 ft. away.
But I figure, maybe this is one of those times the designers assumed their readers are reasonable, rational humans with experience of the real world. Like the condition Dead not stating that you can't take actions. Maybe the designers intended GMs to use their own judgement on the subject.
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But I figure, maybe this is one of those times the designers assumed their readers are reasonable, rational humans with experience of the real world. Like the condition Dead not stating that you can't take actions. Maybe the designers intended GMs to use their own judgement on the subject.
+1 to that. The rules are similarly fuzzy when it comes to using the perception skill at a very far range, such as spotting a castle on the horizon, a mountain or even the moon. Instead of adding +528 to the DC per mile, use a GM's judgement.
Of course, if I were GM, I'd probably associate some sort of penalty to literally not being able to see your own hands are. But your target is: Not using stealth, perfectly well lit, and fully visible. Even if your GM were to be a jerk and suggest you can't find your quiver or aim down a crossbow, they definitely do not have concealment towards you.
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I think the question is if a person is standing in an area of darkness, and also in the area of a Darkness spell, and a nearby person is holding a torch and standing in the area of darkness, but OUTSIDE the area of the Darkness spell, does the person standing in the spell's area see the light of the torch and the person holding it?See the FAQ quoted above: You cannot see outside the area of the Darkness spell if you are inside it
Actually the FAQ don't say that.
Darkness: Can a nonmagical light source increase the light level within the area of darkness if the light source is outside the spell's area?
No. Nonmagical light sources do not increase the light level within the spell's area, regardless of whether the light source is in the area or outside the area.
Both the text of the spelland the FAq spak of the ligth level in the area of effect of teh spell. Nothing about the light level outside that area.
A person outside the area of effect of the spell holding a torch will increase the light level of the area outside the darkness normally. And the darkness spell don't affect that and don't block los to an area outside is area of effect.
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness.
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Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
AFAIK there is no rule saying that you can't see trough a darkness spell to a lit area outside of it.
See the other FAQ mentioned.
With the two combined, we know that:
1) A light source does not permeate into the area of darkness. (It does not illuminate that area)
2) You cannot see a light source through an area of darkness.
It's not a major leap to assume that if you're inside the area, you can't see light outside of it. Look into the rules in the prd for Darkness, and Blymurkla is correct in taking the literal stance that within that darkness, a character without darkvision is effectively blinded
Line of effect is not blocked. Line of sight is blocked, either because you can go the rational way and say 'the combination of these two FAQs suggests that light from an external source does not reach me in this spell area'... Or because you're effectively blinded, as per the environmental rules.
