A Tetsubo Question

[DungeonmasterCal]

So, why is this an exotic weapon? Isn't it really just a great club with brass or iron studs on it?

[Imbicatus]

It's a throwback to 3.5. It's functionally identical to a scythe, but for some reason it was left exotic when scythe was made martial. It should absolutely be a martial weapon, and I houserule it as one. But if you're playing pfs, I'd only use it if you have racial proficiency or worship yamatsumi.

[Jeraa]

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

So, why is this an exotic weapon? Isn't it really just a great club with brass or iron studs on it?

Because it is a greatclub, but better (x4 crit instead of x2).

[DungeonmasterCal]

Well, I don't play PFS, so I'm ruling it a martial weapon myself. I'd made up my mind to do so, but just wanted someone else's opinion on it. Thanks!

[Azten]

Eastern = Exotic for some reason.

[Imbicatus]

Jeraa wrote:

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

So, why is this an exotic weapon? Isn't it really just a great club with brass or iron studs on it?

Because it is a greatclub, but better (x4 crit instead of x2).

And a greatclub should be simple. 1d10 x2 is much worse then the 1d8 x3 reach longspear. It's also in the same range as the 1d8 x3 spear.

[Jeraa]

Imbicatus wrote:

Jeraa wrote:

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

So, why is this an exotic weapon? Isn't it really just a great club with brass or iron studs on it?

Because it is a greatclub, but better (x4 crit instead of x2).

And a greatclub should be simple. 1d10 x2 is much worse then the 1d8 x3 reach longspear. It's also in the same range as the 1d8 x3 spear.

I never said it made sense. The entire weapon proficiency system and the simple/martial/exotic classification doesn't make sense.

[Klorox]

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Well, I don't play PFS, so I'm ruling it a martial weapon myself. I'd made up my mind to do so, but just wanted someone else's opinion on it. Thanks!

I'd do the same, but I don't DM that often, and the tetsubo (and oriental weapons and armors in general) rarely appears in my campaigns, since I usually play in a Western setting, and when I have oriental areas, my players rarely go there.

[Ascalaphus]

It's got strictly better stats than another weapon (scythe, greatclub), so game balance wants it to "cost" more.

[Azothath]

funky names and high damage make it exotic. That's why you want it because you cannot have it... simple...

[Imbicatus]

Ascalaphus wrote:

It's got strictly better stats than another weapon (scythe, greatclub), so game balance wants it to "cost" more.

It doesn't have better stats than a scythe, it has equal. 1d10 is equivalent damage to 2d4. Look at the falchion and the nodachi. In fact, the scythe is more powerful than the Tetsubo because it has two damage types while the tetsubo has one.

And as I said before, the greatclub should be simple.

[Rysky]

Imbicatus wrote:

1d10 is equivalent damage to 2d4.

Not really.

2d4 has a higher minimum damage but a lower and harder to get maximum.

[Imbicatus]

Rysky wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

1d10 is equivalent damage to 2d4.

Not really.

2d4 has a higher minimum damage but a lower and harder to get maximum.

They both average 5 damage per hit though, and 2d4 is also harder to get the minimum.

[Rysky]

Imbicatus wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

1d10 is equivalent damage to 2d4.

Not really.

2d4 has a higher minimum damage but a lower and harder to get maximum.

They both average 5 damage per hit though, and 2d4 is also harder to get the minimum.

Then say that then, instead of "1d10 is equivalent damage to 2d4".

[Imbicatus]

It's equivalent damage on average. The quirks of 1-10 flat distribution over the bell curve of 2d4 are irrelevant to game balance.

[Rysky]

Imbicatus wrote:

It's equivalent damage on average. The quirks of 1-10 flat distribution over the bell curve of 2d4 are irrelevant to game balance.

They are when dice are involved.

[pezlerpolychromatic]

The answer is simple: game balance. The X4 critical is what people will burn a feat for, and if they don't have to do that, why would they ever take a greatclub? Might as well remove greatclub from the list entirely then. Besides, do you really want to put tetsubos in the hands of ogres?

[Tetsubo Ted]

I like to apply garlic and fresh herbs to mine before combat, really brings out the flavor in the brains when I splatter them all over.

[Azothath]

time to hammer some hardened steel cut nails into your earthbreaker... X'0

[Rysky]

Tetsubo Ted wrote:

I like to apply garlic and fresh herbs to mine before combat, really brings out the flavor in the brains when I splatter them all over.

For bladed weapons I like use habanero juice.

[Daw]

Um, math quibble.

1d10 average damage is 5.5
2d4 average damage is 5.0

With a x4 multiplier, you are talking a 2 point average boost on crits.
It is a small advantage, but not meaningless.

[Kazaan]

Well, we can deconstruct it using the Creating New Weapons rules from WMH. A Martial Tetsubo would get 8 DP (5 for martial + 2 for 2-h) while an Exotic one gets 9 DP (6 for exotic + 2 for 2-h). It has no special properties or additional damage types so the only things we need to account for are the increased damage and crit multiplier. x4 Crit costs 6 DP. Now, it needs a few damage increases. It will take four damage increases to get it where it needs to be:
1) 1d3 -> 1d4
2) 1d4 -> 1d6
3) 1d6 -> 1d8
4) 1d8 -> 1d10

Improved Damage costs 1 DP each time so that's four DP for this. Thus, the total DP necessary for this weapon is 10: 6 for the x4 crit and 4 for the improved damage. It starts off with either 8 or 9 depending on whether it's a martial or exotic. So, as a Martial weapon, it needs Additional Design Points 2 times, increasing the GP cost by a total of 30. As an Exotic weapon, it only needs ADP 1 time, increasing the GP cost by 15. The base cost for a 2-h Martial weapon should be 8 while for a 2-h Exotic weapon should be 9. Thus, the proper cost, based on these rules, should be 38 gp for a Martial Tetsubo or 24 for an Exotic Tetsubo. The standard Tetsubo presented in UC costs 20.

So, from a purely mechanical perspective, it's an Exotic weapon because of the price. You could just as easily make a Martial version that costs about twice as much as the standard (seemingly discounted) version presented in UC.

Alternatively, considering the nature of the weapon, it actually does take significant skill and training to use a Tetsubo properly; focusing on strength and balance. An improper swing that misses can leave you open to counter-attack. So a fitting houserule would be that if you lack Exotic proficiency for it, you can use it as a martial weapon, but you provoke an AoO if you miss by 5 or more.

[DungeonmasterCal]

Klorox wrote:

DungeonmasterCal wrote:

Well, I don't play PFS, so I'm ruling it a martial weapon myself. I'd made up my mind to do so, but just wanted someone else's opinion on it. Thanks!

I'd do the same, but I don't DM that often, and the tetsubo (and oriental weapons and armors in general) rarely appears in my campaigns, since I usually play in a Western setting, and when I have oriental areas, my players rarely go there.

My homebrew is in a setting roughly based on Constantinople right around the beginning of the Renaissance in Europe. There is no strictly "Eastern setting" such as found in many fantasy game worlds. The closest in my setting are the Six Kingdoms ruled by Hobgoblins (my homebrew version of them that I've used since 1e). In the 1e Monster Manual they are illustrated as wearing far eastern style armor, so they're the closest I come to have a setting like that, but only certain weapons, such as the tetsubo, make the cut for my setting.

[Klorox]

I LOLled, you made me imagine a beeg beefy hobgoblin in black armor with the mon of the Crab swinging a tetsubo... sure matches how the rest of Rokugan sees the Crab.