If they are both 'Faith' traits, you cannot have them at the same time.
I remember a dev comment about not liking the idea of double a single ability score being applied to things like saves, dex to damage or attack rolls etc, but seeing as this is 1) All will saves, and 2) Certain will saves, that might be different waters.
Since both have conditions where they do not function, its plausible
If they are both 'Faith' traits, you cannot have them at the same time.
This would indeed be problematic if they were both faith traits...but they're not. It's still a bit iffy, with sort of double-dipping charisma there. There's something of an issue with applying an ability score bonus to a roll twice...
Some relevant links:
James Jacobs
James Jacobs also
More James Jacobs
Of course James Jacobs has said he's not a rules guy exactly, but the precedent of his statements probably applies to Society play. If it's not Society play, ask your GM.
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If they are both 'Faith' traits, you cannot have them at the same time.
Towering Ego is a mesmerist feature.
Anyhow, yes, you can. You would only ever be able to benefit from one feature that replaced your Wisdom modifier on your Will save once, and you would only be able to benefit from an effect like Towering Ego (a typeless bonus derived from Charisma) also only once. You would not, for instance, be able to stack Towering Ego and the Paladin's Divine Grace, as they are the same bonus.
However, say you are a Lore/Nature/Lunar Oracle, a Scaled Fist Monk and a Paladin. With Sidestep Secrets/whatever the other two are, you would gain Charisma in place of Dexterity on AC and Reflex saves. Then, you multiclass into Monk. The monk's Scaled Fist Charisma to AC is a typeless bonus, but Sidestep Secrets uses Charisma rather than Dexterity, so these both stack. Then, Divine Grace would stack also with Sidestep Secrets because, once again, one is a typeless bonus from Charisma, the other replacing the normal stat.
Smite Evil also stacks on this AC, as that is a deflection bonus equal to Charisma.
Basically, the only important thing is the source of a bonus, and adding something to a stat straight from an attribute counts the attribute as the source, rather than the feature, and doesn't stack with similar features. You could not then take this build and add Mesmerist levels to get Charisma on Will saving throws twice/three times usinf Irrepressible.
I hope that helps you understand this.
If they are both 'Faith' traits, you cannot have them at the same time.
This would indeed be problematic if they were both faith traits...but they're not. It's still a bit iffy, with sort of double-dipping charisma there. There's something of an issue with applying an ability score bonus to a roll twice...
Some relevant links:
James Jacobs
James Jacobs also
More James JacobsOf course James Jacobs has said he's not a rules guy exactly, but the precedent of his statements probably applies to Society play. If it's not Society play, ask your GM.
I do not think this is how this works. I think James Jacobs is neglecting to acknowledge where these ability modifiers are coming from and where they function. For instance, Fury's Fall is a typeless bonus from Dexterity that is added onto the result. Weapon Finesse suppliments Strength for the normal ability score of an attack roll and a CMB check with a finesse trip weapon. Same for Agile Maneuvers, which does the same thing to all CMB checks. You could not stack Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuevers, but you can stack either of those two with Fury's Fall.
Otherwise, you would have a hard time explaining a Scaled Fist/Paladin using Smite Evil to get a deflection bonus, as by his argument, they are derived from the same stat and therefore are not stackable, despite being completely different bonuses.
Why do you think Oradin is a thing?
If they are both 'Faith' traits, you cannot have them at the same time.
This would indeed be problematic if they were both faith traits...but they're not. It's still a bit iffy, with sort of double-dipping charisma there. There's something of an issue with applying an ability score bonus to a roll twice...
Some relevant links:
James Jacobs
James Jacobs also
More James JacobsOf course James Jacobs has said he's not a rules guy exactly, but the precedent of his statements probably applies to Society play. If it's not Society play, ask your GM.
I do not think this is how this works. I think James Jacobs is neglecting to acknowledge where these ability modifiers are coming from and where they function. For instance, Fury's Fall is a typeless bonus from Dexterity that is added onto the result. Weapon Finesse suppliments Strength for the normal ability score of an attack roll and a CMB check with a finesse trip weapon. Same for Agile Maneuvers, which does the same thing to all CMB checks. You could not stack Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuevers, but you can stack either of those two with Fury's Fall.
Otherwise, you would have a hard time explaining a Scaled Fist/Paladin using Smite Evil to get a deflection bonus, as by his argument, they are derived from the same stat and therefore are not stackable, despite being completely different bonuses.
First, I'd like to say I thought your first post was well worded and clarified the issue quite well, Garbage-Tier Waifu. I was and am wholly in agreement with your initial explanation.
That said, I can also see your point regarding Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, and Fury's Fall. My initial post was just to provide the developer comment, previously alluded to by Issac Daneil, on the double ability score issue. I also sought to clarify, as I suspect OP already knew, that the abilities reference by OP were not both traits.
Regarding the Oradin question, I am well aware of it as well as why it is a thing. It functions well because, as you point out, the bonuses to AC are not of the same type (Type might be moot anyway if they were dodge bonuses...but that's just a bit of an off-topic thought from yours truly).
The issue with the DEX bonuses in James Jacob's posts is not entirely dissimilar to the topic at hand though. With say Agile Maneuvers, one replaces the STR bonus used for CMB with DEX bonus (much like how Irrepressible replaces WIS for Will saves with CHA, for the appropriate situation described in the trait). Fury's Fall adds DEX to CMB, much like how Towering Ego adds CHA to Will saves. Anyway, that's how I see similarity between the cases.
I'm not disagreeing with you, Garbage-Tier Waifu; I'm just presenting what I thought might be a relevant developer comment that had been alluded to earlier in the thread.
EDIT: I think from James Jacob's argument, his view might be that the STR (or DEX for Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse) used in a CMB roll is already an untyped bonus with the ability score as the source (in a fashion). That would sort of explain why why he states that another untyped DEX bonus (in the case of Agile Maneuvers + Fury's Fall) might not stack. But again, this is all inference.
Haha, no worries, yo. I just wanted to say that I really don't think JJ is correct in how those rules work. Nothing more.
Yeah, that's chill. I don't really like JJ's interpretation either...and as he's mentioned several times, he's not really a rules guy.
...For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
The Irrepressible trait does not share language with Towering Ego, which is what this FAQ is addressing. Irrepressible replaces your Wisdom modifier. Towering ego adds a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. It isn't a matter of modifiers but of where and how these effects are applied, and whether there is language conflicts, which indicates if a bonus is the same as another, like Divine Grace and Towering Ego, which do share language.
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I believe one of the major arguments around the FAQ (and possibly the one that caused it) was the interaction between Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse - a replacement and a bonus (similar to the question at hand), which were still declared to be incompatible.
It's been a while, though, and I don't remember all the details. ^_^
I believe one of the major arguments around the FAQ (and possibly the one that caused it) was the interaction between Fury's Fall and Weapon Finesse - a replacement and a bonus (similar to the question at hand), which were still declared to be incompatible.
It's been a while, though, and I don't remember all the details. ^_^
Was this stated by someone other than James Jacobs or was this clarified in further FAQ? I still don't understand how those abilities don't work together. The FAQ suggests that abilities that share language are what determine when a bonus cannot stack, and these features certainly do not share language with each other.
Edit: You know I've had a bit more of a think on it and while understand what is being suggested in the FAQ, I kinda think it is just a tiny bit...silly?
You don't want to take that trait, since as a mesmerist you'll get your charisma bonus to will saves anyway, and they won't stack.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
posted October 2014 | back to top
Linky
Should work.
Towering Ego gives you a bonus EQUAL to your charisma modifier.Irrepressible lets you use your charisma modifier instead of your wisdom modifier.
They do different things, mechanically speaking.
One gives a bonus, the other a substitution.
The math winds up being your charisma bonus + your charisma bonus. Which is stacking. Which doesn't work no matter how they got in the pool together.
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Multiple charisma bonuses stack only if one of them is typed -- for example, the deflection bonus to AC equal to charisma bonus that a paladin gets for Smite Evil would stack with an untyped charisma bonus to AC. That is the only type of exception given in the FAQ.