Arcanist and UMD

[Eretas]

Hi, in most Arcanist's guide, UMD seem to be a must have for Arcanist. As they have access to most wizard spell, I don't figure why UMD is so important. Did I mist something?

[Ryzoken]

Every divine spell in every book can theoretically be accessed through the UMD gate.

Having access to one set of spells is good. Having access to every spell in the game for one skill point per level? Priceless.

And your improved familiar needs you to invest so it can use your ranks. You do have an improved familiar, don't you?

[Eretas]

I'm building an occultist arcanist. So to have an Improved familiar will cost me:
1 Arcanist exploit
1 feat = Improved familiar
Using UMD with intelligence = 1 trait
arcanist only have 2+int skill point: UMD need at least 10 points

So is it worthwhile?
Diplomacy is a must, at least for RP, so 1 trait for that. Using both trait for UMC and diplomacy is it a nice move? or is it better to raise charisma to 14?

Kwal'dag Epwui:

Male elf arcanist (occultist) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 8, 78)
CN Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +3
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 8 (1d6+2)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee dagger -2 (1d4-2/19-20) or
quarterstaff -2 (1d6-2)
Special Attacks arcane reservoir (1/5), consume spells
Arcanist (Occultist) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +5)
1st—mage armor, summon monster I
0 (at will)—dancing lights, daze (DC 14), detect magic, message
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 11
Feats Improved Initiative
Traits clever wordplay, magical lineage
Skills Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Perception +3, Spellcraft +8 (+10 to identify magic item properties), Use Magic Device +2; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Common, Elven, Kelish, Osiriani, Shoanti, Varisian
SQ arcane focus, conjurer's focus (Summon Monster I, 1 minute), elven magic

--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Focus +2 to concentration checks to cast arcane spells defensively.
Arcane Reservoir +1 DC or CL (5/day) (Su) Pool of points fuel exploits, or can expend to add +1 CL or DC while cast spell.
Conjurer's Focus (Summon Monster I, 1 minute) (Sp) Cast summon monster spells with points from arcane reservoir.
Consume Spells (1/day) (Su) As a move action, expend a spell slot to add its spell levels to arcane reservoir.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.

[BretI]

As an occultist, Charisma is a necessity.

You need it at higher levels (where your SLA is costing 4 or more arcane pool) in order to power Consume Spell and probably Consume Magic Item. Without that, you aren't going to make very good use of the archetype.

You will find that spell focus (conjuration) as a lead in to augment summoning will also be more useful.

With other archetypes, you can dump charisma. I do not recommend that for Occultist!

The good side of this is there will be little reason to spend a trait to switch UMD to Int based.

[Ryzoken]

Always, always take a familiar. Always. An exploit and a feat is a pittance for gaining an extra standard action every round. Particularly if you invest in UMD as you should and grab good wands.

My familiar has saved my bacon a time or two. Once, I was grappled by an ooze and managed to break free. This put me in a predicament, however, as walking away would provoke an Opportunity Attack that would see me grabbed again and sticking around would see me grabbed again. Neither option was particularly enticing. So I had my familiar fly away, provoking an Opportunity Attack. Lyrakien Azata have constant freedom of movement. I then walked away and the ooze was defeated a couple rounds later. This, in addition to casting Haste (from a wand) at the start of every fight after I drop a Summons, slamming down a Stone Call to lock enemies in place, or generally being a nuisance with a wand of magic missile.

Take ranks in UMD. Skip the trait for it if you feel like it. It's not like you need to get use out of UMD if your familiar is.

Not sure I'd take Improved Init at level 1. There's an alternate racial trait called Overwhelming Magic for elves (Inner Sea Races) that gives Spell Focus, opening up Augment Summons. Really need that feat for your early summons to matter most of the time, sadly.

I'd skip Cha. Others

BretI wrote:

As an occultist, Charisma is a necessity. -snip- Without that, you aren't going to make very good use of the archetype.

disagree. I find the investment in it ends up being too costly for minor benefit. A 14 cha costs you 5 points (opportunity cost of 9 points if you dump) for other stats and nets you +2 to a handful of skills and 1 extra use each of consume spells and consume magic items. Or I can have those 5(9) points for maxed Int and higher Dex and Con. "But Ryzoken! You can boost it further with magic items!" Sure. With an 8k ioun stone, you can eke out another +2 Cha, or you can undermine your main casting stat by buying a vastly more expensive dual stat headband. I'd rather wash my hands of it and dedicate the build resources and gold elsewhere.

Highly suggest getting a maxed out Int, if you can. It doesn't seem like much, but it's basically the difference between having an extra casting of your highest level spell or not, in addition to an extra skill rank and an extra +1 to DC.

Remember that your Conjurer's Focus is going to eat your entire arcane reservoir each day, probably. Select exploits that don't cost reservoir, such as familiar or metamagic knowledge. Don't skip Quick Study, however, as it's a lifesaver if you can swing its cost.

Expect to take Extra Reservoir at levels 5, 7, and 11. Or resign yourself to using your Conjurer's Focus less than 3 times per day.

[Eretas]

Ryzoken wrote:

Always, always take a familiar. Always. An exploit and a feat is a pittance for gaining an extra standard action every round. Particularly if you invest in UMD as you should and grab good wands.

Thats a good point.

Ryzoken wrote:

Take ranks in UMD. Skip the trait for it if you feel like it. It's not like you need to get use out of UMD if your familiar is.

that's even better.

Ryzoken wrote:

Not sure I'd take Improved Init at level 1. There's an alternate racial trait called Overwhelming Magic for elves (Inner Sea Races) that gives Spell Focus, opening up Augment Summons. Really need that feat for your early summons to matter most of the time, sadly.

I effectively discover that alternate racial trait meanwhile.

Kwal'dag Epwui:

Male elf arcanist (occultist) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 8, 78)
CN Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 8 (1d6+2)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +3; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee dagger -2 (1d4-2/19-20) or
quarterstaff -2 (1d6-2)
Special Attacks arcane reservoir (1/4), consume spells
Arcanist (Occultist) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +5)
1st—mage armor, summon monster I
0 (at will)—dancing lights, daze (DC 14), detect magic, message
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB -2; CMD 11
Feats Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration)
Traits clever wordplay, ease of faith
Skills Diplomacy +9, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Perception +4, Spellcraft +8, Use Magic Device +2; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven, Kelish, Osiriani, Shoanti, Varisian
SQ conjurer's focus (Summon Monster I, 1 minute)
Combat Gear scroll of identify, summon monster i, unseen servant; Other Gear dagger, quarterstaff, arcanist starting spellbook, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, inkpen, mess kit[UE], pot, soap, spell component pouch, trail rations (5), waterskin, 22 gp, 1 sp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Reservoir +1 DC or CL (4/day) (Su) Pool of points fuel exploits, or can expend to add +1 CL or DC while cast spell.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Conjurer's Focus (Summon Monster I, 1 minute) (Sp) Cast summon monster spells with points from arcane reservoir.
Consume Spells (1/day) (Su) As a move action, expend a spell slot to add its spell levels to arcane reservoir.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.

[BretI]

I think you should really look at what happens to your summoning when you get to about 7th level.

At first level, it really isn't a problem since each summons only costs you 1 Arcane Reservoir point.

At 7th level, you will not be able to fill your Arcane Reservoir. Your reservoir would hold a maximum of 3 + level = 10 points, but only fill to 3 + 1/2 level = 6 points. Assuming you use your one use of Consume Spell to convert your highest level slot, that only gets you to 9 points in the reservoir.

Your maximum summon via the spell-like Conjurer's Focus costs 4 points (Summon Monster IV). You could do it twice a day and have one point remaining.

If instead you took a Charisma of 16, you could consume 3 spells, getting you a total of up to 9 more points from consuming spells. You could do three Summon Monster IV summons via Conjurer's Focus plus one Summon Monster III. It also makes it worthwhile to look at Consume Magic Item. Most adventures have some sort of wand or potion that no one cares about.

Going higher level makes the numbers even worse.

---

On a slightly different note, why take Summon Monster I as a spell when you can do it faster and the creature stays around longer using Conjurer's Focus? Get some variety in what you can cast and memorize a different spell.

[Eretas]

Oh Summon monster IV cost 4 arcane point, not 1??? I will build my arcanist to level 10 so I will be able to understand your point.

[nicholas storm]

For an elf, illustrious Urbanite is better than overwhelming magic to get spell focus conjuration - this alternate race trait from heroes of the street trades keen senses for it.

[BretI]

ACG, pg. 78 wrote:

At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing her to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level), at the cost of an additional point from her arcane reservoir per spell level.

It is somewhat confusing the way they stated it, but basically it costs the same as the level of the Summon Monster. Summon Monster I costs 1, Summon Monster II costs one more so 2, Summon Monster III costs two more so 3, etc.

It gets quite costly at higher levels, which is why having Consume Magic Item as an exploit is worthwhile with this archetype.

[Eretas]

nicholas storm wrote:

For an elf, illustrious Urbanite is better than overwhelming magic to get spell focus conjuration - this alternate race trait from heroes of the street trades keen senses for it.

I don't think it's PFS legit. I don't find that trait.

[Eretas]

I wonder if occultist is interesting with the so small amount of arcane point I can have... That limit the use of other arcane exploit so much.

[BretI]

You have the full wizard spell list. You can summon monsters as a standard action rather than a full round action. You can drain unwanted magical items for more arcane reservoir if you take that exploit.

It will depend on your play style, but I think it can be an interesting archetype.

Also consider that you don't need a trait to swap charisma based skills to Int. Later you can add a circlet of persuasion and the skills will be quite respectable.

[Ryzoken]

Eretas wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

For an elf, illustrious Urbanite is better than overwhelming magic to get spell focus conjuration - this alternate race trait from heroes of the street trades keen senses for it.

I don't think it's PFS legit. I don't find that trait.

It is specifically not legal for PFS. Overwhelming Magic is legal.

[NoTongue]

Running an Arcanist Occultist and I had very similar ideas to yours rather than list my build I'll point out the differences between mine and yours.

I'm using human, with that I get the bonus feat and rather than use traits for access to diplomacy I've traded skilled for Fey Magic.

Few Magic gives you a single Rangers favored terrain, a 1st level druid spell usable in this terrain, low-light vision but most importantly you get to pick from a large range of skills to be added as class skills. I took diplomacy and bluff.

My stats ended up starting out like this

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 19(17+2), Wis 7, Cha 14

My current level is 7.

The higher charisma is better for your diplomacy and you won't need to waste a trait to use int over charisma.

One of my traits is Fates favored, it coupled with a lucky horseshoe a 6'800 gp items gives me a slotless +2 luck bonus to saves and a once a day +5

I have a headband of mental prowess for +2 to int and chr and will hopefully acquire a rod of splendor, a slotless +4 charisma enhancement item. This will essentially allow me to burn up to 4 spells, which means I should rarely ever not have a summon for every battle that needs it, this assumes that you have 4 fights in a day that require heavy resource use.

Feats to aim for: spell focus conjuration, augment summoning, improved familiar.

superior summoning if you want to summon lots of celestial animals and shred evil.

Must have exploits: dimensional slide(amazing life saver), familiar, quick study (amazing utility), potent magic.

[Eretas]

Notongue wrote:

Few Magic gives you a single Rangers favored terrain, a 1st level druid spell usable in this terrain, low-light vision but most importantly you get to pick from a large range of skills to be added as class skills. I took diplomacy and bluff.

The Fey magic for elves don't have the second part with the bonus skill.

Otherwise, I like your build. Maybe not OP, but cool to play with hign charisma.

Edit: By the way, Fey tough, is not PFS legit.

[NoTongue]

You have 5 arcane points, you should only have 4, I understand why that is, the Elf favored class bonus is poorly worded, it only increases the maximum points you can hold in the pool, it doesn't increase how many you get each day, it's not a very good bonus for anything other than the twilight archtype. A gnome arcanist is the only FCB to get extra arcane and that's a measly 1 every 6 levels

I know fey thoughts isn't legal but fey magic for human is.

My suggestion is just to play a human with good charisma if your going for an occultist unless being an elf is important to the character then consider bumping con down to 14 start and taking hp as your FCB, you will have stats similar to mine but with a 16 dex and a 12 con. You will need the charisma to be able to fuel your summons

Also lets you take the school of understanding exploit for the void school ability that unlike other 1st level abilities works off caster level instead of wizard level so for 3+chr times a day you can cripple someone's saves and AC, at 7 charisma (-2) this would be once.

I know fey thoughts isn't legal but fey magic for human is.

[Eretas]

If fey thoughts is not PFS legal, but Fey magic is and give human fey thoughts, Is it legit or not?

[BretI]

They have changed it for PFS.

Campaign Clarifications

Quote:

Heroes of the Wild
Page 5—Humans who take the Fey Magic racial trait do not gain Fey Thoughts.

[Eretas]

Thanks!