Hello everyone, I would really apreciate some input and suggestions.
We are playing wrath of the righteous and my 4th lvl tiefling Paladin is not panning out how I planned it. I was working on a intimidate build with Ancestral scorn, Cormugon smash, intimidating prowess and finally working my way up to dreadfull carnage.
But our DM didn t agree with the intimidate rules because he tought it is to easy to intimidate high lvl mobs, so he increased the difficulty by 5.
So I m ditching the whole concept and have to change basicly all feats around.
Another unexpected turn is that I m now wielding an epic longsword that will grow into a Mythic weapon, instead of my earthbraker, which was my weapon of choice, to go the castigator route.
We are 4th lvl and my current build is: HP 34
Archetype: Holy Guide ( fav. terrain and 1 teamwork feat at 6. instead of Mercys)
Stats (rolled):
Str 20 (+1)
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 18
Feats:
1. Fey foundling
3. Power Attack, fav. Terrain Abyss
5. ?
6. Teamwork ?
7. ?
9.
11.?
Planned Mythic Champion path:
feats:
Mythic Power Attack
?
?
-Fleet charge
1. Mythic Smite
3. Precision or Titans rage?
6.??
I can t decide which route to go now, should i just wield the longsword in both hands or go sword and board? Noone else carryes a shield in the group so I might get my hands on a pretty good one.
Group composition is a 3rdParty PaladinMonk archetype (armorless and fights with his fists. An archery inquisitor who s our main dmg dealer, a bard and a 3rd party Priest.
We are well covered on healing so all I need to do is get in the enemys face and dish out dmg.
Our DM allows 3rd party stuff, but I m no fan of it, but if there s something your suggested build absolutely needs I might consider it, it just needs to be on the d20pfsrd page.
Thank you so much for your input. I would like the build to hit peak at around lvl 11/12 because that s where most our campaigns end.
There is no point discussing the decisions of the DM, he set s the rules and we go with it. He s a pretty lenient god so we do accept when he imposes some restrictions.
Just something I wanted to add:
I don t want to go the Mythic Vital strike line, because I think it s pretty much cheese. I would rather go with multiple attacks and use Fleetcharge to set me up for full attacks.
Eldritch Heritage is something I would find very cool. Abyssal offers itself pretty much from the story but it can also be something different.
Other feats I like and am considering:
-Armor of the Pit (+2 nat armor)
-Weapon Focus
-Improved Shield Bash
-Shield Master
-Weapon Focus
-Reward of grace
-step Up
-Tribal scars
-Reward of Life
What deity does your paladin worship?
Sword and board can be very effective for a paladin. Given that no one else in your group uses a shield, I would strongly lean that direction. If you go that route, no need for Armor of the Pit since you will already have a pretty high AC.
As a Tiefling Paladin, are you using your FCB for self-healing? Given you already have Fey Foundling, I would expect that you are. If so, you really don't need Tribal Scars for more hit points. Extra Lay on Hands would give you more via swift action healing than Tribal Scars does.
As a Paladin, you will not get many feats. I would avoid Weapon Focus unless you need it as a prerequisite for another feat. You are already a Full BAB class with high strength, you aren't going to miss very often in melee.
I wouldn't abandon the Intimidate route.
Even with a +5 DC, you can and will beat it most of the times.
After Cornugon Smash though, your priority should be
1) Hurtful
2) Weapon Trick
Now you can take 10 on your Intimidate attempt. If you keep it maxed and have a good charisma, you can intimidate anyone without rolling.
When you do that, you get an extra attack from Hurtful.
Your GM would hate it tho, so choose wisely.
Thank you both for your advice. I agree I could still make intimidating work. But I really got the feeling my DM does not like it. He wants us to be scared of the deamons (which we are) and not the other way around.
With Ancestral scorn I should be able to give enemys -4 or even stagger them, my DM would hate me for that alrdy...
He s a follower of Iomedae and yes I am using the favourite class bonus for self healing, exept the first lvl because I didn t have lay on hands then. At 4th lvl I LoH for 2w6+7 on myself. The reason for wanting more hp is because I rolled really bad a 2 and a 4 followed by a 10 so it s starting to even out, but 34 hp at 4th lvl isn t that great. My main role will be to absorb hate and Dmg so a little bit of a buffer I think is needed. But I always learn Hero s defiance as first lvl spell, so I should be fine.
If you are going to intimidate and carry a shield, antagonize might keep some of your soft companions safer....
If you're going longsword, go the sword and board route, especially as an Iomedan, you've got some options worth considering if you have access to some of the more esoteric Paizo rulebookks.
If you considered hit points a problem, why didn't you put your 4th level attribute increase in Constitution? Does your group allow the retraining rules? If so, you might look at it for retraining hit points.
With your deity being Iomedea, sword and board really seems appropriate.
If you are fighting a large number of demons, Blind Fighting is worthwhile.
Hitpoints isn t a priority, we will be able to increase stats and hp from Mithyc levels, so Con will certainly be raised soon. We don t play with retrains, but I asume because I have to change the build he might be lenient towards it. I have the Omen trait, which gives me Intimidate as class skill that I actualy want to train away from, not sure yet on the alternative.
Blind fighting is a great input, I haven t tought of that, thanks for that
If you're going longsword, go the sword and board route, especially as an Iomedan, you've got some options worth considering if you have access to some of the more esoteric Paizo rulebookks.
Yes I am leaning towards sword and board atm, Mythic power attack will certainly make the dmg gap between 2hand and sword n board smaller.
What great options from esoteric books are you refering to for a Paladin from Iomedae pls?
I really can t find any decent teamwork feat for this character, anyone got some suggestions? The charging feets looked decent, but I ll be using fleet charge to get myself into the thick of battle so that s off the table. Noone else uses a shield... noone has a companion, I m also leaning towards using the weapon enchant as divine bond
If you are allowed access to all traits, there is a good one from Kingmaker called Sword Scion that gives you a +1 trait bonus to Aldori dueling swords and longswords.
I know you said healing isn't a priority for you, but if you use a lot of self-healing, the Mystical Healer feat is great. It's 3rd party, but it gives you a scaling bonus to all magical healing.
Your Dexterity is decent. With just a +1 stat boost into it, you can take Two-Weapon Fighting, and with Improved Shield Bash, keep your shield bonus to AC when doing so. This will really be effective when you are smiting evil.
I would suggest coordinating with the Inquisitor when it comes to Teamwork feats. Or do you get the Inquisitor power of not needing your ally to have the same Teamwork feat too? I think there is a Teamwork Feat that works well with an archer and someone in melee with the archer's target.
If you are allowed access to all traits, there is a good one from Kingmaker called Sword Scion that gives you a +1 trait bonus to Aldori dueling swords and longswords.
I know you said healing isn't a priority for you, but if you use a lot of self-healing, the Mystical Healer feat is great. It's 3rd party, but it gives you a scaling bonus to all magical healing.
Your Dexterity is decent. With just a +1 stat boost into it, you can take Two-Weapon Fighting, and with Improved Shield Bash, keep your shield bonus to AC when doing so. This will really be effective when you are smiting evil.
I would suggest coordinating with the Inquisitor when it comes to Teamwork feats. Or do you get the Inquisitor power of not needing your ally to have the same Teamwork feat too? I think there is a Teamwork Feat that works well with an archer and someone in melee with the archer's target.
Thank you, Sword Scion is certainly a great trait.
Good you reminded me of the Mytical Healer feat, I ve seen and gaspd at it before but didn t recall it.
Unfortunately our Inquisitor doesn t have teamwork feats because he s a Cold Iron Warden Archetype.
If I m honest I can t recall why my dex is so high, but it s good possible that i might have had an eye on dual wielding when I created the char. I did have a warning from my DM I should not focus to much on my earthbraker.
What I m actualy gona try is ask my DM if I can replace the teamwork feat at 6th level and the ability to share it with allies, for a 6th lvl ranger combat style. I mean the Holy guide alrdy leans strongly on a ranger with the fav terrains. Would you consider that an unbalanced change? I would love to get my hands on shieldmaster but would never be able to meet all prerequisits.
With shieldmaster and improved shield bash I could dualwield a light shield and longsword with -4 mainhand 0 light shield. It certainly would hurt but it would open up alot of feats that don t do much else and wouldn t have to boost dex with +1.
What do you guys think of this idea?
When smiting, you add your Charisma bonus to your attack rolls, so that can counteract the penalty for two weapon fighting.
Do you ever flank with the monk or bard or priest? Precise Strike is a nice little damage boost....
Using Dual Enhancement to grant two weapons Divine Bond is pretty awesome, along with TWF smiting. You could go longsword and cestus, so that you can effortlessly switch between two-handing, TWF and having a free hand.
You could always decide that you want to take some Bloodrager and a little Extra Rage. Bloodrager has no alignment restrictions, can get a pretty good number of Rage rounds/day with one feat, and has some extremely flavorful Bloodline choices for a Paladin; and a Paladin can cure Rage fatigue with a swift action.
You could even decide that you want to get really 'zealous' with a longsword and take a level of Sohei Monk along with the Crusader's Flurry feat, so that you can longsword-flurry in mithral medium armor.
OOH! I like the idea of Sword & Cestus! Super neat! And grab a Ring of Force Shield if you need more defense--do paladins get magic vestment? Taking the fatigue-removing mercy is a great idea, too!
Bloodrager dipping could be fun, too. Does Berserker of the Society work with Bloodrager raging?
Is taking Extra Traits worth it to grab Magical Knack paladin and/or Magical Knack bloodrager?
OOH! I like the idea of Sword & Cestus! Super neat! And grab a Ring of Force Shield if you need more defense--do paladins get magic vestment? Taking the fatigue-removing mercy is a great idea, too!
Bloodrager dipping could be fun, too. Does Berserker of the Society work with Bloodrager raging?
Is taking Extra Traits worth it to grab Magical Knack paladin and/or Magical Knack bloodrager?
I'm pretty sure Berserker of the Society requires you to be a Barbarian.
If spell level matters, Magical Knack: Paladin is probably already a good idea due to Paladin spell level reduction, even without multiclassing. With a Bloodrager dip I don't think it's worth getting into spell levels.
I made a human paladin (15 point buy) with the following build. He was really fun.
14, 13 (14 after 4th level), 12, 10, 10, 16 (includes +2 Human bonus)
Traits:
Magical Knack: paladin
Sword Scion
Feats:
1. Fey Foundling (human bonus feat)
1. Power Attack
3. Extra Lay on Hands
5. Mystical Healer
7. Selective Channeling
He was sword and board.
Skills were maxed Diplomacy and Sense Motive with a bunch of dabbling in other skills like Handle Animal, Knowledge nobility, Knowledge religion, Ride, etc.
He had a magical wooden sword. I think it was +2 or +3 merciful.
He mostly tanked, soaking up hits, but did decent damage and excelled at healing. He was a good face.
BadBird you have some great ideas. The Bloodrager dip would fit very well thematicly to this caracter because i want him to be the inpersonation of the WRATH of righteous and alrdy had to attone once or twice for overreacting and he s a frequent visitor of the cofession box. Our DM is very strict on us keeping a pure heart and any ungood deed tempts our feelings to join the dark side. So I m pretty sure I could get in some trouble for dipping bloodrager, but I ll check if there s an archetype that modifies rage.
The cestus would look great, would give me the possability to switch from 2hand to 2 weapon style, would free up some feats I don t have to spend on shield bashing but I really feel me and the group would be better served with me wielding a shield, since noone else does.
Some points on Bloodrage(r):
1. Rage isn't some kind of psychosis or evil urge to kill or anything. A character using Rage is still in complete control - a raging character can simply turn it off at any time as a free action. So it's simply a tool of battle, not a... uh... 'lifestyle'?
2. That being said, Urban Bloodrager is a great archetype anyhow; just pure strength and Furious weapon, no other fiddling.
3. Furious Weapon is great, especially when you really want two weapons to be decent.
4. Blood Conduit Bloodrager grants free Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a possible TWF option similar to cestus - except that you can carry a shield and still make an unarmed strike by headbutting or shield-punching or pommel-bashing or... well anyway it's free-reign for imaginative violence. Enhancing an offhand unarmed strike is cheaper with a (Furious) Bodywrap of Mighty Striking. If you have Improved Unarmed Strike you can always take Dragon Style to make your first (only?) offhand deal 1.5xSTR - mechanically it's much better than Double Slice, since your best attack gets a bigger bonus. Plus... 'Dragon', and 'Style'.
Demons *should* be scared of a mythic paladin wielding a mythic demon-slaying holy sword.
Besides, if your DM is worried about you guys applying the shaken condition, uhhhh... they're in for a very rude awakening by the time you get a couple books into the AP - you will be unstoppable, unkillable superheroes. It's the biggest complaint about the AP from most GMs that weren't prepared for it.
Shaken is really going to be bottom of the barrel of their concerns very shortly.
As for mythic abilities, remember you get a path ability every tier and a mythic feat at every odd tier.
For Champion (good choice), I'd personally go something like:
1) Mythic Smite
2) Impossible Speed
3) Fleet Warrior (enjoy ultra-pounce always active, no charge required)
4) Beyond Morality (immunity to alignment-based effects, can never ever fall as a paladin, benefit from evil auras to turn your enemy's strength against them, etc)
5) Divine Source (allowing you to pick any domains thanks to beyond morality)
6) Critical Master I
7) Critical Master II
8) Precision
9) Precision II
10) Precision III
Feats:
1) Mythic Power Attack
3) Mythic Spell Lore
5) Mythic Paragon (Handy in general, but especially with Divine Source)
7) Extra Path Ability (Divine Source II)
9) Extra Mythic Power
I agree with you Gulthor, I wanted to go the intimidate route and not go full dmg vital strike one so the fights would last longer. I Dm myself and know the problem of preparing an epic fight and then the whole thing is over in 2 rounds. I ve read enough about Mythic levels to know they will brake the game and I ve shared what I read and my feelings with the group and DM.
But it is how it is and I seem unable to change his mind. So I just have to adapt to the situation and make the best out of it.
Thank you both for your advice. I agree I could still make intimidating work. But I really got the feeling my DM does not like it. He wants us to be scared of the deamons (which we are) and not the other way around.
With Ancestral scorn I should be able to give enemys -4 or even stagger them, my DM would hate me for that alrdy...He s a follower of Iomedae and yes I am using the favourite class bonus for self healing, exept the first lvl because I didn t have lay on hands then. At 4th lvl I LoH for 2w6+7 on myself. The reason for wanting more hp is because I rolled really bad a 2 and a 4 followed by a 10 so it s starting to even out, but 34 hp at 4th lvl isn t that great. My main role will be to absorb hate and Dmg so a little bit of a buffer I think is needed. But I always learn Hero s defiance as first lvl spell, so I should be fine.
He wants you to be scared of the demons... Except Paladins are immune to fear and you are in a mythic campaign where not only can others choose immunity to fear, but you can get mythic presence and have a fright aura like a dragon..
Personally I'd go that route and you can have it all
Get mythic presence as soon as you can
Poof no need to roll intimidate
By the way
Fleet charge, impossible speed and aerial assault ... Very good combo
Gets you to combat with a Big Bang and you can still full attack if you haven't absolutely crushed whatever it was with your death from above manuver
Wow now it s raining good suggestions, exactly what i was looking for. I have no experience with Mythic levels, so I will relly on your input, I honestly had no idea what Mythic feats to take past power attack. Mythic Spell lore sounds great, but with what spells should I use it?
I don t completely understand Divine Source, seems to be the transformation into a demi god (crazy) :-)
just WOW at Aerial Assault, I was worried how to get to deamons who re flying, I guess this takes care of it.
I ll post a build of what I have in mind after I discussed my idea with the DM of exchanging the teamwork feat for a lvl 6 ranger combat style. I ve always loved the idea of having shieldmaster.
Yep, Divine Source turns you into a quasi-deity, it's pretty cool.
As to how it works, it's really easy: when you take it, pick two domains. They would have to be Law and Good in your case unless you take Beyond Morality, in which case you can pick anything.
You can now have worshipers, but you can only grant spells up to your tier (tier +2 if you took Mythic Paragon.)
Additionally, once per day per spell level you grant access to, you can cast a spell from one of the domains you grant access to as a spell-like ability, which removes the component cost and drops the casting time to a standard action.
So, if you grab it at 3rd tier with Mythic Paragon, for instance, you could grant up to 5th level spells, and once per day, you could cast one 1st level domain spell, one 2nd, one 3rd, and so on (just one of each level, not one per domain.)
If you take Divine Source again, you get one more domain and two subdomains, expanding your options.
As a paladin, I'd recommend Community as one of your domains, and oh, what's that at 9th level? Miracle? As a spell-like ability? Sure, we can go with that. The Resurrection subdomain is another winner (and Healing is nice to have, too), as it gives you access to True Resurrection - again, as a spell-like ability, which not only takes away the component cost, but makes it a standard action.
One final note with regards to Divine Source, depending on how lenient your GM is, you can of course use a higher level slot to cast a lower level domain spell. The way that Divine Source is worded, you could interpret that you get access to a "tenth level spell" once you hit effective 10th tier, which you could downgrade to a 9th level. Same for effective 11th and 12th tier with Mythic Paragon. My GM *did* rule it this way, so I ended up with access to four 9th level domain spell-like abilities I could cast per day.
Aerial Assault is a very good recommendation I'd forgotten, and it works very well with Fleet Warrior. Probably grab that over Divine Source II or Precision III (and the tiers at which to grab them are really flexible, I was just kinda dropping them in wherever.)
As far as mythic spells go, Mythic Divine Favor is really nice, as is bless, dispel magic, break enchantment, prayer - you get most of them, to be honest, so again it just ends up being a bit more utility. Feel free to swap it for kinda whatever you like if the idea doesn't work for you.
Allright so i met up with my DM and things have become interesting. We agreed that the Holy guide archetype has strong influences from the ranger and to my own surprise I will take a mount at the 5th lvl. He will allow me to take a 6th lvl ranger combat style feat instead of the teamwork feat. The question now is, do I take Shieldmaster, so I can dualwield at -4/-0 I have to admit 20% lower chance to hit with my main weapon hurts significantly and I would probably use this only when I am smiting. The other option is spirited charge. Because I m really not a fan of horses (specially attacking), he agreed on that I could use something more exotic like an Elk (Megaloceros at 7th lvl) or an Arsinoitherium (prehistoric two horned Rhino) both are chargers.
So the character Looks the following now:
Tiefling Paladin Holy guide:
Feats:
1. Fey foundling
3. Power Attack, fav. Terrain Abyss
5. any good ride feats? /2 traits: Suicidal & Sword Scion
6. Spirited charge / Shieldmaster
7. Ancestral Scorn / improved shield bash
9. Intimidating prowess / Improved critical?
11.Blind fighting?
So I still have some Feats spare, for which I wouldn t mind some suggestions. The 6th lvl Ranger style gives me the opportunity to get the essential feat for shield bashing or mounted combat without the heavy prereq investment. I will not be persuiing this paths further because I don t meet the pre reqs.
Mythic Abilitys:
0. Sudden Attack
1. Mythic Smite
1. Mounted Maniac ( just can t get away from intimidation)
3. Precision.
3. Aerial Assault
3. beyond morality ?
6. Critical Master
...
Mythic feats:
1. Mystic Power Attack
3. Extra Mythic Power
5. Mythic Spelll lore
This is how far I ve gotten, not sure it makes sense to plan further at this moment.
So the main question is, would you take, spirited charge or shieldmaster in my situation. With what 5. 7. 9. and 11. lvl feats would you use with your choice.
Feats for the mount will be power attack, improved overrun and it should alrdy have trample. what else would be a good feat to help with survivability?
armortraining is a possability what s the max ac animal armor can give?
+5 full plate barding? +14?
do i need 3 feats for the companion to be able to wear heavy armor?
You don't, but your horse does.