Excessive Errata

[Melganash]

I"m a relatively new convert from 3.5 and I have to say I'm enjoying Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society. I do have one issue that continues to crop up: incessant errata.

It's annoying when a favorite build is nerfed, but its really nothing to complain about. Rather, I bring up the topic because I find myself hesitating to purchase any of the books. Why would I? The incredibly long errata documents ensure that any book is useless at the table. Such a large percentage of the material has been changed, that every use of the book requires referencing both it and the errata. The result is a frustrating delay during gaming.

There are free pdfs versions available online as well as user friendly apps and when I weigh the frustration of the constantly updating errata to the cost of the books I can't help but feeling my money is better spent elsewhere.

I'm not oblivious to the realities of the RPG industry and would prefer to spend my money supporting the company creating such an enjoyable game. However, I choose not to spend my money purchasing paperweights. I suggest Paizo setup a place to make donations online. When I feel the urge to support the company, I can contribute without acquiring excess garbage.

[skizzerz]

You can purchase the PDF versions of the books, which are updated whenever new errata is released so you can always download the most current version.

You can write in the books or use post-it notes to flag areas that have had FAQ or errata.

Things outside of the core line, such as Player Companions and Campaign Settings, don't really ever receive errata. There are a few exceptions, but in general those books are never reprinted (a reprint is what triggers a new cycle of errata). FAQs may still apply, but those are also pretty rare for non-core lines.

You can purchase supplements such as maps, pawns, or miniatures that are still useful at the table but aren't subject to errata.

All of the above are ways you can support Paizo, and there are plenty of others too.

I personally like that Paizo is unafraid to put out FAQ and errata in order to address issues with the game. While I may not agree with everything they put out, the fact they are trying means they are invested in improving past things in addition to simply pumping out new books to make a quick buck.

[wraithstrike]

You can check to make sure you are buying the most recent copy. Errata does not make an entire book invalid. Personally I prefer pdfs.

Also if they did not fix mistakes they would lose money. I would never buy their books if they just refused to fix anything. Others feel the same way.

Also those free pdfs are illegal. I wouldn't recommend pirating, especially on their website.

[Ryzoken]

skizzerz wrote:

You can purchase supplements such as maps, pawns, or miniatures that are still useful at the table but aren't subject to errata.

I am waiting for the day that this changes.

"Flipmat Red Light District: replace squares A-1 through D-5 with squares F-6 through I-10 of Flipmat City Gates."

"Flipmat Warship: remove the center mast. Replace with a coil of rope."

"Miniature Amiri: remove Large Bastard Sword from mini."

"Pawn Bestiary 6: trim edges of Prototype ARX-7 to fit in medium base instead of large to coincide with altered size in Bestiary 6 errata."

I, for one, have nothing but faith in Paizo's ability to errata things to the ground!

[Maezer]

.... You came from 3.5 and think Pathfinder has incessant erratas. What did you think of WotC's FAQs/Erratas? Essential 3.0 to 3.5 was one really big errata, except you actually had to buy new books to get the updated material.

Now I'm not exactly thrilled with how slowly Paizo rulings trickle out from Paizo, or how Paizo try to organize them... but I think they've made a concerted effort to have fewer erratas than their predecessor.

Of course if you mean WotC isn't still issuing erratas for 3.x era material now that they are two editions and a decade down the road. Well I guess that's understandable.

[M1k31]

Ryzoken wrote:

skizzerz wrote:

You can purchase supplements such as maps, pawns, or miniatures that are still useful at the table but aren't subject to errata.

I am waiting for the day that this changes.

"Flipmat Red Light District: replace squares A-1 through D-5 with squares F-6 through I-10 of Flipmat City Gates."

"Flipmat Warship: remove the center mast. Replace with a coil of rope."

"Miniature Amiri: remove Large Bastard Sword from mini."

"Pawn Bestiary 6: trim edges of Prototype ARX-7 to fit in medium base instead of large to coincide with altered size in Bestiary 6 errata."

I, for one, have nothing but faith in Paizo's ability to errata things to the ground!

except there would be no profit in that.... why tell fans to edit flip-mats or minis when you can sell more with barely any differences? Errata on the other hand can reduce content/expense for more profit.

[Ryzoken]

I'll take "Missing the joke" for a thousand, Mr Trebek...

[Snowlilly]

I have no issue with the number of FAQ's or Errata.

I have an issue with the quality. Changes are often either ham-handed or cause more issues than they resolve.

[Azten]

Too bad Paizo doesn't really seem to care enough to listen to any feedback that isn't groveling admiration. Sadly I'm pretty sure the exaggeration here is only minor.

[PathlessBeth]

Maezer wrote:

.... You came from 3.5 and think Pathfinder has incessant erratas. What did you think of WotC's FAQs/Erratas? Essential 3.0 to 3.5 was one really big errata, except you actually had to buy new books to get the updated material.

1. No, you didn't have to buy new books to get the updated material: they released a free 3.0-3.5 conversion document with all the updates. You need to buy new books if you want the updated material in your physical books, but that's true of Paizo's "errata" as well.

2. WotC did their edition changes in a way that was friendly to consumers who didn't want to upgrade. They left the 3.0 SRD online to this day (though it is burried in the archives section of their site). They also still host the official 3.5 srd (though most players ignore it in favor of d20srd.org). Paizo doesn't do anything like that.

Also, WotC sells PDFs of every edition they have ever released going back to 1974. Not only does Paizo refuse to sell older edition PDFs, but if you bought a PDF before they came out with "errata," then they steal the PDF out of your downloads.

3. Even if you consider all the 3.0->3.5 updates one big piece of errata, it's still less than the extent of errata Paizo has issued. WotC's 3.0->3.5 conversion PDF is 40 pages total, and it includes all the changes from the PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods, ELH, and the Manual of the Planes.
Meanwhile, Paizo's errata document for the Core Rulebook alone is nine pages, and that is supposedly just for the content they copied from the PHB and DMG.

[Zaister]

137ben wrote:

Also, WotC sells PDFs of every edition they have ever released going back to 1974.

Please direct me to the site where I can buy official PDF of D&D's current edition, then.

137ben wrote:

... then they steal the PDF out of your downloads.

Did they delete files from your computer?

[wraithstrike]

137ben wrote:

Maezer wrote:

.... You came from 3.5 and think Pathfinder has incessant erratas. What did you think of WotC's FAQs/Erratas? Essential 3.0 to 3.5 was one really big errata, except you actually had to buy new books to get the updated material.

1. No, you didn't have to buy new books to get the updated material: they released a free 3.0-3.5 conversion document with all the updates. You need to buy new books if you want the updated material in your physical books, but that's true of Paizo's "errata" as well.

2. WotC did their edition changes in a way that was friendly to consumers who didn't want to upgrade. They left the 3.0 SRD online to this day (though it is burried in the archives section of their site). They also still host the official 3.5 srd (though most players ignore it in favor of d20srd.org). Paizo doesn't do anything like that.

Also, WotC sells PDFs of every edition they have ever released going back to 1974. Not only does Paizo refuse to sell older edition PDFs, but if you bought a PDF before they came out with "errata," then they steal the PDF out of your downloads.

3. Even if you consider all the 3.0->3.5 updates one big piece of errata, it's still less than the extent of errata Paizo has issued. WotC's 3.0->3.5 conversion PDF is 40 pages total, and it includes all the changes from the PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods, ELH, and the Manual of the Planes.
Meanwhile, Paizo's errata document for the Core Rulebook alone is nine pages, and that is supposedly just for the content they copied from the PHB and DMG.

I know Wotc was selling "select" 3.5 pdfs, but I didn't know they were selling all of the 3.5 books.

I also didn't know they were selling all versions such as 1.0 and 2.0 version of the monster manual. That is what "Also, WotC sells PDFs of every edition they have ever released going back to 1974."

I tried to go to the site to verify, and now I can't find the 3.5 books. Do you have a link?

[Steve Geddes]

The 3.5 PDFs

2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium

1st Edition Monster Manual

They're gradually converting things to PDF, so although every book from 3.5 might not yet be available, the nothing to indicate they won't be eventually.

WotC just seem to have a strong aversion to PDFs of the current edition core books. One argument I've heard is that they want to distinguish themselves in the eyes of FLGS owners - not because D&D sales mean very much, but because those venues are the main outlet for selling/promoting Magic. Losing out on some D&D sales and losing some customer respect in the TTRPG market is perhaps less important than maintaining good relations with the marketting/retailing/venue-providing FLGSs.

[wraithstrike]

Steve Geddes wrote:

The 3.5 PDFs

2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium

1st Edition Monster Manual

They're gradually converting things to PDF, so although every book from 3.5 might not yet be available, the nothing to indicate they won't be eventually.

WotC just seem to have a strong aversion to PDFs of the current edition core books. One argument I've heard is that they want to distinguish themselves in the eyes of FLGS owners - not because D&D sales mean very much, but because those venues are the main outlet for selling/promoting Magic. Losing out on some D&D sales and losing some customer respect in the TTRPG market is perhaps less important than maintaining good relations with the marketting/retailing/venue-providing FLGSs.

Steve when the word edition was mentioned it was worded as if every version of the same book was availible.

As an example:
Monster Monster 3.5 version 1.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 2.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 3.0

If he actually meant an entirely different edition that is a nonfactor because Paizo doesn't have different editions so there is nothing to compare.

I was aware that WotC was likely going to do a slow roll with getting the books out, but the other comment made it sound like all of those books were availible right now.

edit:Nevermind I see what he is saying and most of the things he mentions such as pdfs and srds that do not update are seen as drawbacks by many, not a feature, and there is less errata from WoTC because they took the lazy route and never fixed everything that should have been fixed.

PS: Not directed at Steve, just posting my clarification here.

[PathlessBeth]

Thanks Steve and Wraithstrike for clarifying, since I was about to give a long response similar to Steve's, but with substantially more links that would have taken me a lot longer to locate, which would have been a waste of time since I misunderstood Wraithstrike initially:P

So now I'll respond to what I actually think you are asking:

wraithstrike wrote:

As an example:
Monster Monster 3.5 version 1.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 2.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 3.0

There really aren't such things, because they weren't printed. WotC reprinted the 3.5 MM multiple times, but they didn't change the text in the printed books. They don't sell different versions of the 3.5 monster manual, because there is only one version. Or, rather, there are two versions of the 3e monster manual, and one is called 3.0 and the other is 3.5.

Similarly, they sell the BECM Rules Encyclopedia seperately from Basic,Expert,Companion,Master, and Immortal, despite them being different packaging for essentially the same rules, along with the other edition of Basic and Expert.
Paizo does have different editions in that sense, they just call them "printings" instead.

Note that what I said was not entirely correct (I made a mistake): there were multiple versions of the "original" D&D rules, but WotC is only selling one of them. I've never seen the first version first-hand (I'm not old enough to have been gaming in the '70s), but I have been lead to believe that the "original" original D&D contained copyright infringements that presumably prevent WotC from selling them (notably Balrogs and Hobbits).

Also, awhile ago WotC sent out a mass e-mail to everyone who had bought their PDFs saying that there were several very old supplements that they had "lost," and were looking for copies to scan and sell as PDFs. I suppose it's possible that even if they were able to make a deal with Tolkien's estate, they might not have a copy of the first version of the OD&D rules to scan and sell.

[Steve Geddes]

wraithstrike wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

The 3.5 PDFs

2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium

1st Edition Monster Manual

They're gradually converting things to PDF, so although every book from 3.5 might not yet be available, the nothing to indicate they won't be eventually.

WotC just seem to have a strong aversion to PDFs of the current edition core books. One argument I've heard is that they want to distinguish themselves in the eyes of FLGS owners - not because D&D sales mean very much, but because those venues are the main outlet for selling/promoting Magic. Losing out on some D&D sales and losing some customer respect in the TTRPG market is perhaps less important than maintaining good relations with the marketting/retailing/venue-providing FLGSs.

Steve when the word edition was mentioned it was worded as if every version of the same book was availible.

As an example:
Monster Monster 3.5 version 1.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 2.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 3.0

If he actually meant an entirely different edition that is a nonfactor because Paizo doesn't have different editions so there is nothing to compare.

I was aware that WotC was likely going to do a slow roll with getting the books out, but the other comment made it sound like all of those books were availible right now.

edit:Nevermind I see what he is saying and most of the things he mentions such as pdfs and srds that do not update are seen as drawbacks by many, not a feature, and there is less errata from WoTC because they took the lazy route and never fixed everything that should have been fixed.

PS: Not directed at Steve, just posting my clarification here.

I haven't really been reading your argument (FWIW, I think it would be silly to keep different printings available and don't consider them "new editions").

I just thought you didn't know (people often mistakenly think WotC are anti-PDF whereas it's actually just the current edition, core books they don't like providing in that fashion). Was merely providing the links.

[wraithstrike]

137ben wrote:

Thanks Steve and Wraithstrike for clarifying, since I was about to give a long response similar to Steve's, but with substantially more links that would have taken me a lot longer to locate, which would have been a waste of time since I misunderstood Wraithstrike initially:P

So now I'll respond to what I actually think you are asking:

wraithstrike wrote:

As an example:
Monster Monster 3.5 version 1.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 2.0
Monster Monster 3.5 version 3.0

There really aren't such things, because they weren't printed. WotC reprinted the 3.5 MM multiple times, but they didn't change the text in the printed books. They don't sell different versions of the 3.5 monster manual, because there is only one version. Or, rather, there are two versions of the 3e monster manual, and one is called 3.0 and the other is 3.5.

Similarly, they sell the BECM Rules Encyclopedia seperately from Basic,Expert,Companion,Master, and Immortal, despite them being different packaging for essentially the same rules, along with the other edition of Basic and...

Those are not new editions. A new edition is completely different than errata.

There is no way to compare D&D 3.5 to 4.0 and saying it is equal to the difference between two versions of a book. In that case 3.5 pre and post errata are the same, and almost nobody is going to agree with that. That is just reaching.

[PathlessBeth]

wraithstrike wrote:

There is no way to compare D&D 3.5 to 4.0 and saying it is equal to the difference between two versions of a book.

I didn't. I compared the three different versions of "Basic" which have nearly identical rules, and referred to them as three different editions of the same product. I compared the 3.0 MM and the 3.5 MM, and said they are two different editions of the same rulebook in the same way Paizo has released six different versions of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

I did not claim that Paizo's "errata" was somehow comparable to the difference between AD&D 2e and D&D 3e (it isn't, those are entirely different games), nor the difference between D&D 3e and D&D 4e (it isn't, those are also entirely different games.)

Paizo's "errata" is, however, comparable in the extent of its changes to the difference between the 3.0 and 3.5 core rules, or the differences between Mentzer Basic and Moldvay Basic.

[QuidEst]

Nah. It might cover as much content, but the changes are way less drastic in scope than 3.0 to 3.5. I can't think of anything like the change to Haste, giving Clerics spontaneous cure spells, or changing what skills are in the game.

I buy Pathfinder books for two reasons- to get early access because I'm excited for the new material, and to get APs to run games with. Errata doesn't impact either of those for me. Personally, I'd prefer errata to be more frequent, fixing mistakes in PDF versions quickly rather than being tied to printings of the physical book.