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Can a Stalker Vigilante use the Vigilante Talent Rogue Talent to get the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick?
I do not see any kind of limitations on the Rogue Talent under Vigilante other than they have to be a Stalker, so I am leaning towards yes they can. Unless someone can point me to something that indicates otherwise.
I can't see any reason it wouldn't work. If you want to use Ninja Tricks that involve Ki, you would need to take the Ki Pool Rogue talent first though.
Building up wisdom is also good for will saves. While the Ki pool never grows (short of buying a wisdom headband), there's always the Extra Ki feat. It's probably one of those things where if you're going to do it at all, you might as well crank up the uses/day.
Another option is just to straight-up multiclass with Monk 4 to automatically get a 2+WIS Ki Pool (and then toss the Ki Pool talent on top of that for even more Ki if you want to. There are plenty of interesting Monk options, like going Sohei 4 to use flurry of blows in mithral medium armor.
There's a Vigilante archetype called the Teisatsu in the Spymaster's Handbook supplement that basically is the Vigilante Ninja specialization. They get regular stalker goodies, plus a scaling Ki Pool and the ability to get Ninja Tricks and Monk Ki Powers in place of Vigilante Talents.
They're not allowed to get regular Rogue talents, though that's not a big loss.
A problem exists, and that is that the Rogue Talent vigilante talent does NOT state you can take it more than once. Because it doesn't... you can't.
In order to get a Ki Pool and a talent that works with it, you need to be a Teisatsu.
A problem exists, and that is that the Rogue Talent vigilante talent does NOT state you can take it more than once. Because it doesn't... you can't.
In order to get a Ki Pool and a talent that works with it, you need to be a Teisatsu.
Extra Rogue Talent?
Extra Rogue Talent?A problem exists, and that is that the Rogue Talent vigilante talent does NOT state you can take it more than once. Because it doesn't... you can't.
In order to get a Ki Pool and a talent that works with it, you need to be a Teisatsu.
Doesn't work. Vigilantes don't have the Rogue Talent Class feature. Their class feature is called Vigilante Talent.
Doesn't work. Vigilantes don't have the Rogue Talent Class feature. Their class feature is called Vigilante Talent.Extra Rogue Talent?A problem exists, and that is that the Rogue Talent vigilante talent does NOT state you can take it more than once. Because it doesn't... you can't.
In order to get a Ki Pool and a talent that works with it, you need to be a Teisatsu.
Isn't the salient point that they use "Vigilante Talent" to gain the "Rogue Talent" feature?
Nope, they gain a single rogue talent, not the whole class feature.
Regarding monk dip, Unchained Monk or Ki Mystic get Ki Pool at lvl3.
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Well, since they can only take a single rogue talent, maybe multi-classing with Unchained Rogue would do the trick...which brings up a separate question.
How would Sneak Attack and Hidden strike work together? Would you just roll you sneak attack dice + your hidden strike dice on attacks that qualify?
You check and roll Sneak Attack and Hidden Strike seperately.
Nope, they gain a single rogue talent, not the whole class feature.
In what way is gaining a Rogue Talent not having the Rogue Talent feature? "You have a Rogue Talent, but you don't have Rogue Talent" is looking sketchy to me; the Vigilante Talent that grants access to the Rogue Talent is even specifically called "Rogue Talent".
By comparison, a Life Oracle picks up a limited positive channel through an optional Revelation, yet I've never seen it said that they don't qualify for Channel Energy prerequisites because they don't have 'the whole class feature'.
I'm not trying to be obstinate here; is there actually some ruling for why this doesn't qualify? Because I'm not seeing an issue with the method of gaining the feature, and plurality isn't a requirement.
it's similar to weapon training that a rogue has vs fighter.
Same name, nothing similar.
The vigilante has vigilante talents. 1 of those is called rogue talent, which lets you pick a rogue talent and use for your vigilante.
This is not the class ability rogue talent that lets you pick rogue talents as you level. So you're not gaining the feature.
Same name, nothing similar.
You're using the Rogue Talent feature to select a Rogue Talent right off of the Rogue Talent list. Are you seriously saying that that's 'nothing similar'?
This is not the class ability rogue talent that lets you pick rogue talents as you level. So you're not gaining the feature.
So a Warpriest, Paladin, Life Oracle and Life Spirit Shaman don't qualify for Channel Energy as a prerequisite because they don't have the Cleric Channel Energy feature? Paladin and Life Oracle don't even have a feature called "Channel Energy" at all.
The Primalist Bloodrager's Primal Choices feature has specific language that prevents using it as a Rage Power prerequisite, because gaining access to a Rage Power - even in a different way - is enough to qualify for things like Extra Rage Power. The Vigilante's Rogue Talent feature does not have this prohibitive language.
channel energy is the same ability. Having a vigilante talent named something similar to a class feature, example rogue and fighter, doesn't make them the same thing.
So a vigilante talent that lets me one time pick a rogue talent isn't giving me the rogue talent class feature.
Same a ninja taking rogue trick, doesn't qualify for extra rogue trick, must take extra ninja talent feat.
If you would gain the class feature, you could pick a rogue talent every other level from than on.
channel energy is the same ability. Having a vigilante talent named something similar to a class feature, example rogue and fighter, doesn't make them the same thing.
So a vigilante talent that lets me one time pick a rogue talent isn't giving me the rogue talent class feature.
I'm still not seeing anything but arbitrary distinctions being stated as fact. What makes Channel Energy "the same" but Rogue Talent "different"? Warpriest Channel Energy works very differently from Cleric in multiple ways, and you declare that it's 'the same'. Vigilante Rogue Talent works exactly the same as the usual Rogue Talent feature in every way, save for the fact that you don't get to pick more at later levels, and you declare that it's not 'the same'. By what basis are you drawing these lines?
I would think trying to argue that "Vigilante gains 'Rogue Talent', which functions identically to 'Rogue Talent' except for progression, but they still don't have 'Rogue Talent'" would take an awful lot more of an explanation than "no, it's different". By that logic, someone could just as easily say "Slayer gains 'Sneak Attack', which functions identically to 'Sneak Attack' except for progression, but they still don't have 'Sneak Attack'".
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Seems like the rogue version of rogue talent is a baseline feature tof the class that everyone of the class gets, while the vigilante merely has the option to take a single one time rogue talent if they choose to.
One is a baked in ability, the other is a very limited option.
I am not familiar with the different channel energy abilities, so I cannot comment on those.
Well, it's generally accepted that a functionally similar feature counts as the same feature for many purposes, such as different ways that different classes can get some form of Channel Energy. Even if different classes get Channel Energy in different ways, and it works somewhat differently, it still generally counts as Channel Energy for the purpose of prerequisites (this goes way back to questions like "does a Paladin have the Channel Energy feature if it works differently and is called a different name?" (Yes). So it ends up being a question of 'how different is too different'?
When a feature is named the exact same thing, then it becomes even more of a question; if you have a feature that's called X and the prerequisite of a feat is X, then there's a whole question of why anything else is even actually needed, assuming that taking a feat based on having X makes sense. If a Rogue takes the Ki Pool talent and gains a limited Ki Pool, do they not have the Ki Pool class feature to qualify for Extra Ki because it isn't the 'full feature'? I've never seen anyone suggest the answer is no, but apparently in this case...
Anyhow, I didn't mean to derail this into some rules-debate. I'm rather surprised that people are taking issue with it, though I guess I shouldn't be.
As I was saying before, taking levels in any class that gains a Ki Pool will let you use it with Vanishing Trick, so that's an option. Ninja gets it at 2 (and a Ninja Trick anyhow), though it's based on CHA; Ki Mystic Monk gets it at 3, and any other Monk gets it at 4. Vigilante/Monk could probably do some pretty great stuff with a Monk sword or other more exotic weapon, and there are plenty of Monk Archetypes out there that do interesting stuff.