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Is it possible to cast 2-3 spells a round if you are using spells that naturally have Swift and Immediate casting times without using Quicken Spell metmagics?
Example say you could cast the Feather Fall, Litany of Sloth and Greater Stunning Barrier spells (lets assume one character is leveled and classed that this is possible).
Could you swift action Litany of Sloth, cast GSB as a standard action and then use actual movement as a move action to step of a cliff and finally use Feather Fall as your immediate action (using up your swift from next round in the process)?
This is just one example but I think it gets the idea across.
You can cast two spells per round without Quicken Spells. One standard, and one that is naturally immediate/swift. You can never (possibly barring Mythic) cast more than two spells per round.
Nope.
There is only one mechanic, that I'm aware of, to increase the action type from swift to anything else.
And it explicitly cannot be used for spellcasting.
That was not the question asked. He's basically asking can you cast:
1 Standard action spell
+
1 Swift action spell
+
1 Immediate action spell
In a single round.
The answer is no, but it takes some digging to find:
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Parsing this, you have a hard capped limit of 1 spell per round, which Swift action spells bypass.
So you can cast EITHER 1 Standard action spell AND 1 Immediate action spell OR 1 Swift action spell and 1 Immediate action spell.
Technically speaking, this means you cannot cast Feather Fall on any round you have already cast a spell, since Immediate actions are "very similar" but not identical to Swift actions (according to the Combat chapter).
That is the RAW, though the RAI might be different (and you'd be hard pressed to find a GM that would rule that, I think).
If you ignore the cap on spells per round, then there is no action economy issue with your idea, though I believe the generally accepted RAI is that you can cast EITHER a Swift OR an Immediate action spell in addition to your Standard spell, but never both.
Ok, technically I guess you can cast one standard, one swift, and one immediate action spell in a round, depending on how your "turn" and initiative work out. Say you're first in initiative. You cast a standard and swift on your initiative count. Then later in the same round, someone attacks you and you can cast an immediate action spell in response. But then next round you'll only be able to cast a standard action spell on your initiative count. So on average you only get two spells per round, although you might be able to borrow one forward if the initiative falls our right.
More specifically, an immediate action on your turn requires that turn's swift action. Wile E Coyote physics do not apply, if on your turn you move off a cliff then on your turn you start falling. You could cast Litany, GSB, and then after your turn ends (and someone pushes you over a cliff) cast Feather Fall, but you could not yourself move over the cliff and cast Feather Fall before falling 500 feet (the distance you fall a round). Basically, your turn needs to end before you can cast an immediate action spell (if you already cast a swift action spell).
Incorrect. Immediate actions ALWAYS eat your NEXT turn's Swift, never the current turn's.
More specifically, an immediate action on your turn requires that turn's swift action. Wile E Coyote physics do not apply, if on your turn you move off a cliff then on your turn you start falling. You could cast Litany, GSB, and then after your turn ends (and someone pushes you over a cliff) cast Feather Fall, but you could not yourself move over the cliff and cast Feather Fall before falling 500 feet (the distance you fall a round). Basically, your turn needs to end before you can cast an immediate action spell (if you already cast a swift action spell).Incorrect. Immediate actions ALWAYS eat your NEXT turn's Swift, never the current turn's.
No, that's incorrect actually.
From the Combat section:
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn).
Hm. I always misread that, I guess. The last line there is probably what kept throwing me off.
So yeah, this doesn't work for many multiple reasons then.
Hm. I always misread that, I guess. The last line there is probably what kept throwing me off.
So yeah, this doesn't work for many multiple reasons then.
And that is the apparently the reason I got it wrong too. I always thought the same as you did Sundakan, that using an immediate action used this turns swift action OR it used your next swift action if you had already used a swift this round.
So if I am reading all this right, you CAN cast a swift action spell with another spell in the round whether that swift action casting time is native to the spell or achieved by quicken spell metamagic.
But if you have not used your swift action then you COULD 'Wile E. Coyote' off a cliff as Bob Bob Bob puts it and cast the Immediate action Feather Fall as immediate action spells can be cast at any time whether on your turn or not as long as you have not used that turns swift action.
Thanks everyone! It was my misreading of Immediate actions that had me confused.
Ok, technically I guess you can cast one standard, one swift, and one immediate action spell in a round, depending on how your "turn" and initiative work out. Say you're first in initiative. You cast a standard and swift on your initiative count. Then later in the same round, someone attacks you and you can cast an immediate action spell in response. But then next round you'll only be able to cast a standard action spell on your initiative count. So on average you only get two spells per round, although you might be able to borrow one forward if the initiative falls our right.
This does not work technically either.
When the rules talk about rounds there are two different things they sometimes refer to.
1) A round is from the highest initiative count to the lowest initiative count. The rules very rarely use this form of talking about rounds.
Much more common the rules use this second form of what a round means:
2a) When talking about rounds from a characters perspective, it means either from the beginning of the characters turn to just before the start of their next turn OR
2b) from just after a characters turn to the end of their next turn.
Swift/immediate actions use 2b. A swift or immediate action used during a characters turn "recharges" after the characters turn is over (that is you could use an immediate outside of your turn, like if someone pushed you off a cliff), and doing so uses your swift action for your upcoming turn. But as pointed out, using either a swift or an immediate during your turn takes your swift action economy for that turn, so you can only get 1 of them.
Is it possible to cast 2-3 spells a round if you are using spells that naturally have Swift and Immediate casting times without using Quicken Spell metmagics?
No. You run into a spell count (rather than action economy) limit from the CRB.
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Note that there's no discussion of Quicken Spell metamagic here, just swift actions.
- You have a normal limit of one spell per round
- Spells with a casting time of 1 swift action don't count against this, but you can only cast one such spell per round
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As far as I know, there's no rule that lets you substitute a standard or move action for a swift action. You can spend a standard action as a move action, but not as a swift.
Doesn't that stop any attempt to cast multiple swift-speed spells in the same turn?
The "1 spell limit" appears to be vestigial text from an older edition; it is only referred to in the swift spells rule, it doesn't actually occur anywhere as a rule itself.
The rule text should be quite different if the writers didn't mean for the immediate action to recharge once your turn ends. Usually, the superior rule interpretation is the one that doesn't assume the writers are idiots.
Um, I'm pretty sure I'm in agreement with that.
Swift/immediate actions use 2b. A swift or immediate action used during a characters turn "recharges" after the characters turn is over...
That still doesn't let you cast a swift and immediate during your turn.
As far as I know, there's no rule that lets you substitute a standard or move action for a swift action. You can spend a standard action as a move action, but not as a swift.
Doesn't that stop any attempt to cast multiple swift-speed spells in the same turn?
The "1 spell limit" appears to be vestigial text from an older edition; it is only referred to in the swift spells rule, it doesn't actually occur anywhere as a rule itself.
If I recall correctly, the mythic rule book actually spells it our more explicitly. e.g., extra standards gained through mythic power usage do not allow casting more than 1 spell (outside of the extra granted by swift).
The "1 spell limit" appears to be vestigial text from an older edition; it is only referred to in the swift spells rule, it doesn't actually occur anywhere as a rule itself.
Agree. Also, there is absolutely no reason for ia rule to exist - the only way I know off of generation more than one standard action a turn is Monk of the Four Wind's Slow Time ability, which explicitly disallows spells. Apparently according to bbangerter, the same applies to mythic stuff.
The only thing such a rule would prevent is casting Feather Fall on your own turn after you managed to destroy whatever you're standing on with an ill-placed fireball or something.