Can I offhand attack first? Confused about TWF, Shield Master, and Full Attacks


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

I am playing a character in PFS and my guy just got the feat Shield Master. Originally, I would hit sword shield sword at +6 +6 +1 before penalties and bonuses.

Now, when all is calculated, my shield swings at a higher attack bonus than my sword. The rules on a full attack say I have to attack from the highest bonus to the lowest, if I get multiple attacks due to high BAB.

Does this mean I have to hit with my shield first, because it has a higher bonus? Does hitting with my shield first stop it from being my off-hand attack?

Here's the breakdown of my weapon finesse tank:

Fighter 1 / Slayer 6
BAB 7
Dex 20
Weapon Finesse
TWF
Shield Focus
Improved Shield Bash
Power Attack
Shield Master
Stumbling Bash
Improved TWF

My gear at the moment is a +1 Rapier and a +3 Spiked Heavy Shield. I have the trait Shield Trained.

So in a full attack, Rapier Shield Rapier Shield, my bonuses (without PA) are +11/+15/+6/+10 (7 BAB + 5 Dex + 1 or 3 Enhance - 2 or 0 TWF).

If I go in highest to lowest, it would be shield sword shield sword, but if my rapier becomes my offhand, my TWF penalties get harsher.

To repeat my questions: Do I have to attack with the highest attack bonus first? Can my first attack be my offhand attack?


highest to lowest only apply to attacks from high BAB (RAW). Extra attacks are not caused from high BAB, they are caused by other sources twf, haste, speed weapon. these are extra attacks and can come at any point you so choose.


As mentioned it isn't your highest Attack bonus, it is your highest base attack bonus. Therefore when two weapon fighting (in any form really) you can attack with either weapon first.

PRD wrote:


If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

The two highest attacks must come first (your first attacks with either your rapier or shield) in whichever order you prefer. After that your 2 attacks from high bab and Improved two weapon fighting (again in whichever order you prefer)

Edit:
Basically you have to attack in pairs, once with the rapier and once with the shield in an order of your choice, first with the higher set of attacks, then with the lower. If you got a third set you would do this 3 times. The order within the pairs need not be constant, just that you take them at each level of bab together before proceeding to the next.


First of all, there's no way to designate main and off-hand in Pathfinder, except in regard to TWF.
Here's a (maybe) relevant FAQ about TWF and iterative attacks
As I would interprit this, it means that you need to start with your "main hand" (the weapon that you will be getting full Str to damage with and also be able to do an iterative with) and after that use your "off-hand". You can't start with your "off-hand" (the one that you get half Str to damage with) and later do the your regular and iterative main attack.
But I could be wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Okay, that makes sense. You attack down in steps based on the BAB. Now my remaining question is: Can I use my extra attack from my offhand BEFORE my main hand?

This is mostly for the benefit of Stumbling Bash. I know I could just light-hand a kukri, but that would negate the value of Shield Trained.


It's worth noting you can decide either weapon to be your main hand. So you can make your shield your primary hand weapon or your off-hand weapon.

And unless Stumbling Bash specifies that it requires your shield be used in your off-hand there shouldn't be any changes to your attack modifiers based on which hand is primary or off-hand. Your shield will always have +4 better to attack than your sword (with current enhancement) because the shield ignores the TWF penalties due to shield master and has a +2 better enhancement than the sword. Mechanically it's a better choice for your main hand since you're a full BAB and will get 4 attacks with your main hand and only 3 with your off-hand, though I guess technically it doesn't matter for PFS since your BAB doesn't get high enough for a 4th attack.

Liberty's Edge

The reason why it matters is because with Shield Trained, my heavy shield is a light weapon. This reduces the TWF'ing penalties to -2/-2 when it is offhand (-2/0 now with Shield Master).

My rapier is one-handed so if it is my offhand I have 0/-4 as penalties.

I have also considered just buying a second shield and using 2 at 0 penalties. Then each hit applies a typeless -2 to enemy AC.

It still doesn't answer my question about if I can hit with my offhand attack first.


JamesTheDonkey wrote:

The reason why it matters is because with Shield Trained, my heavy shield is a light weapon. This reduces the TWF'ing penalties to -2/-2 when it is offhand (-2/0 now with Shield Master).

My rapier is one-handed so if it is my offhand I have 0/-4 as penalties.

I have also considered just buying a second shield and using 2 at 0 penalties. Then each hit applies a typeless -2 to enemy AC.

It still doesn't answer my question about if I can hit with my offhand attack first.

Didn't realize you weren't using two light weapons, I guess I had a brain fart or didn't read closely.

You'd be much better off changing your rapier to a kukri. 1d4 vs 1d6 damage isn't significant.

Regardless, I believe whatever weapon you attack with first is technically your main hand, per the FAQ that Rub-Eta linked.


JamesTheDonkey wrote:

Okay, that makes sense. You attack down in steps based on the BAB. Now my remaining question is: Can I use my extra attack from my offhand BEFORE my main hand?

This is mostly for the benefit of Stumbling Bash. I know I could just light-hand a kukri, but that would negate the value of Shield Trained.

According to the FAQ attack examples, you resolve all of your Main-Hand attacks first, from highest to lowest, then you resolve all of your Off-Hand attacks, from highest to lowest.

It's easiest to view it as having two sets of Iterative Attacks, because that's basically how it functions (and falls in line with the FAQ answer). You normally have one set of Iterative Attacks, but TWF gives you a second set, which you take after your first one, and each of your attacks from both sets of Iterative Attacks suffer penalties based on whether you possess a feat and your equipment choices. The only real question would be if you have you Off-Hand first or not, in which case you cannot based on the FAQ example.

I would've went with the Shield-Bearer trait instead; it gives +1 damage bonus on Shield Bashes, which is nice, and the ability to add a +2 Trait Bonus to AC for an ally for 1 round, 1/day. As others have said, using a Kukri would've been best. I mean, Shield-Trained offers a unique benefit (Heavy Shields count as a Light Weapon), but without some sort of means to take advantage of it (such as getting Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls, and using said Heavy Shield as a Throwing Shield on top of it), you're kind of lacking an actual benefit besides proficiency (which you already get).


Rapier with an Effortless Lace (2500gp) wrap miscellaneous magic would be as light as a Kukri for offhand use. Since you have a +1 Rapier, it may be worth the effort to keep your effective +1 damage (d6 over d4) rather than spending the rough equivalent of the Lace to get a +1 or +2 Kukri.


I believe the OP said this was for PFS, Effortless Lace is banned. I'm not sure why though, I never could find any discussion about it.

Sovereign Court

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


According to the FAQ attack examples, you resolve all of your Main-Hand attacks first, from highest to lowest, then you resolve all of your Off-Hand attacks, from highest to lowest.

I'm not sure the FAQ really says that. The example to which you refer is really quite sloppy; it omits the penalties for using 1H weapons off-hand. It's only trying to make a point about how many attacks you make and at what BAB/iterative.

I don't think it should be stretched to mean anything more, such as that you would do them in a different order than what the CRB prescribes.


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Ascalaphus wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


According to the FAQ attack examples, you resolve all of your Main-Hand attacks first, from highest to lowest, then you resolve all of your Off-Hand attacks, from highest to lowest.

I'm not sure the FAQ really says that. The example to which you refer is really quite sloppy; it omits the penalties for using 1H weapons off-hand. It's only trying to make a point about how many attacks you make and at what BAB/iterative.

I don't think it should be stretched to mean anything more, such as that you would do them in a different order than what the CRB prescribes.

It omits the penalties for simplicity purposes, because you can't assume that the PC does or does not have the TWF feat, nor can you assume what weapon is primary or secondary, which does affect the bonuses. (Most do, but again, it's as much of an assumption as it is for players to take Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and so on.) In one example, you have 2 less of a penalty, in another, you don't have that benefit, and in any or all of the examples, you may or may not have the TWF feat, which also affects the penalties applied, and that's just the basics. We're not counting Shield Master, class features (Two Weapon Warrior), or anything else on similar application, which has just as much of an impact, so quite frankly, them not including penalties for demonstration purposes is perhaps the smartest way to go about explaining how it works without confusing people with bonuses (and therefore resulting in a FAQ about how to calculate TWF bonuses to hit).

Also, it's quite clear that it's deliberate for the Primary weapon to be resolved before the Off-Hand. Look at the FAQ example again:

FAQ wrote:

Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):

(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6

It specifically says you only have two options with the TWF action, and in both of those options, the weapon which you deem to be your primary weapon has all of their attacks and their bonuses listed before your off-hand weapon (and its attack bonuses). If the intent is that you could resolve them in any order of your choosing (Primary V.S. Off-Hand), there would actually be more than 2 (at least 4) given means of carrying out that option that would be legal.

Lastly, I'm almost positive the intent (as evidenced by the FAQ and its example phrasing) is that a Primary Weapon's attacks are resolved before the Off-Hand Weapon's attacks, in the same vein that a Primary Natural Attack is resolved before a Secondary Natural Attack.

Sovereign Court

There are two things to choose; which hand will be primary/secondary, and in which order to strike. The FAQ only discusses your options for assigning primary/secondary, and points out there are two options for that choice.

It doesn't say anything about your choices for the order of execution. It doesn't say it's changing the rule from the CRB:

Quote:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


Ascalaphus wrote:

There are two things to choose; which hand will be primary/secondary, and in which order to strike. The FAQ only discusses your options for assigning primary/secondary, and points out there are two options for that choice.

It doesn't say anything about your choices for the order of execution. It doesn't say it's changing the rule from the CRB:

Quote:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

The part you bolded only references this part of the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:

(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1

More specifically, the C and D options.

If it said "If you are using Two-Weapon Fighting," then I would concede that point, but it doesn't say that. Because there is a way to attack with two weapons without using TWF, the concept of the bolded part also applying to TWF is doubtful. TWF has its own rules and restrictions separate from generic Full Attacking, and the entry you cite from the Full Attack section doesn't change that.

There is the matter of Double Weapons, but if you are using a normal attack routine, as the Full Attack entry is supposed to represent, you can't ever attack with both ends in the same round according to the rules regarding Double Weapons, and there's nothing outside of TWF that allows you to do that (which normal Full Attack rules do not properly cover), which leads to an inconsistency in the rules, since TWF, at no point in time, is referenced, or even implied in the Full Attack entry.

We can do this all day, and to be honest, I don't think either of us really want to, since it would just be cyclical and repetitive. I'm fine with calling it table variation if you are, because at the end of the day, that's what our argument results in.

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